Ace electric boilers?

[Covrich]

I tried a new technique with my Ace boiler yesterday. I did a really big IPA, mashing in the boiler WITHOUT a grain bag. I just put in 15 litres of mash water, brought it to a measured 78C (I don't trust the accuracy of the thermostat cut-off) and then emptied in and stirred 6KG of grain into the bare boiler. As I said above, I am reluctant to use the element during the mash so I cover the boiler with a sleeping bag and wait out the hour. Even on a foul, cold wet day, at the end of the hour the mash was at 64C.

I drained the boiler into a ready cleaned FV, and sparged twice. First with 10 litres for twenty minutes and then with about 8 litres of 75C sparge water, stirring the grains steadily each time in the sparge water and then draining off each batch into the FV on the floor under the ACE boiler which stands on a sturdy chest.

I then swilled out the boiler into my compost bin and cleaned it up for the boil. This only took about three minutes with a hose on hand ready.

This leaves me with more runnings than I can fit into the boiler without it coming over the top, but I put about 25litres into the boiler and started the heating up and boil, and put the rest, maybe about 7 litres onto the stove in my Wilco pot and brought that to the boil as the Ace boiled off in the normal way. Both lots of runnings are boiling at the same time, but as the Ace evaporates away, I top up from the stove pot.

My wort came in at 1062 SG which was much better than I expected.

Unfortunately, I had a minor boil over near the end of the boil when I put the ACE lid half on and went down to the house for something. This meant that I ended up slightly shy of my aimed for 23 litres, so I added back just under two litres of boiled water and ended up with a SG of 1060, which will still produce a mighty IPA at about 6.8% and in the bottle, 7% with the carbonation sugar factored in. I am assuming that the fermentation will bring the SG down to 1010 with those estimates. It usually ends about there in my brews.

This mashing technique without the bag allows a more thorough rinsing of the sugars off the grain than my previous method of rinsing the bag in a FV with hot water. The same grain bill ten days ago produced an OG of 1052, nearly a whole percentage point ABV or about 15% lighter in the final beer.

The essential thing here is you need somewhere to dump the spent grain and water when swilling out the ace after mashing. My compost bin is ideal for that.

Sounds like you have raised your efficiency from the low 60s to low 70s :thumb:.

Surprised that the bag makes that much difference but whatever works I suppose. You are doing a more traditional way of brewing I suppose..

You see whereas I now (as you know I decided to go gas after my ace) I have a big pot (50l) 33 or so liters of strike water, bag in with grains , mash.. then raise temp to 75. stir wait a bit raise bag and boil..

Different ways achieves teh same thing, how did you get on with the filter??

If I remember since the ace diameter isn't huge the filter is quite small and teh tape doesn't leave a lot of dead space, you could try and fashion some kind of hop spider?? that might actually work out pretty well in the ace boiler..

 

[Tony1951]

Did the boiler drain ok? No problems with the filter clogging?
This sounds a whole lot easier than hoisting bags of grain saturated in wort out of the boiler and burning your hands squeezing it out.:lol:

I'm assuming from your question that in the post above this one your description is about you sparging and mashing in the bag.

Yes - it drained really very well. It flowed very strongly even with the pretty massive load of grain which half filled the boiler even when the runnings drained out. That was one of the things I was a bit concerned about before I opened the tap. The pressure dropped off to a dribble as it got near the end, but you would expect that. Out of my 15 litres of initial mash water, I got nine litres out and a wee bit more going by the markings on the FV I drained it into, but of course with 6kg of grain, you might expect retention of one litre of water per kg of grain. The good thing is thta when I put anotehr ten litres of hot water in to sparge the whole grain mass became totally fluid and I could easily swirl the sparge water through the mass with a long spoon. It was much more fluid than porridge say.... All the draining s worked the same.

I also thought about Phil's remarks above about putting the bazooka filter thingie on a 90 degree bend. I just bent mine up into a sort of 80 degree bend which it retained quite well and since there was not big fat grain bag dropped on top of it, it just stayed there. This helped a lot with draining after the boil since it wasn't lying in teh sludge at the bottom of the pot. I had to coax the last litre out by stroking the filter with a spoon, but I got about 20% of teh trub that I got by upending the whole boiler contents into the FV which I ended up doing on my last two brews so the FV will produce a real 23 litres of beer rather than about 20 or 21 because there is so much less trub.

I'll definitely do this again, even if it was slightly more messy when tipping out the grain than just lifting out the bag. I think it may have taken a bit longer mind, but the stronger beer is a good result.

 

[Tony1951]

Different ways achieves teh same thing, how did you get on with the filter??

If I remember since the ace diameter isn't huge the filter is quite small and teh tape doesn't leave a lot of dead space, you could try and fashion some kind of hop spider?? that might actually work out pretty well in the ace boiler..

I haven't really tried the figures in a calculator to see what the percentage is so I can't remark on that measure.

EDIT: I think I am above the low 70s when you consider that I lost two litres of the original wort due to a boil over and the wort was at 1066 before I added back a couple of litres of water.

Yes there are lots of ways to skin the cat, but this worked well for me this time - just a bit more messy at the dump out of the grains. I think the mass of grain was a lot less solid free of the bag restriction so in theory you should get better rinsing during the sparge maybe.

I was well pleased with bending up the filter. After the boil it was much easier to drain right down to the last two litres and if I hadn't let the thing boil over by putting the lid partly on, I would not have bothered with the dregs right at the end because I would already have had my target volume. I reckon I probably had 25 litres right up to the boil over in the last five minutes.

Glad you are happily sorted with you gear now. Felt pretty sorry for your traumas with the cutting out ace.

 

[Tony1951]

But I leave the heat on so it slowly rises, but only to about 146-148, though I'm sure the grains in the bottom of the bag probably get hotter than this.
Anyway, it seems to work as, along with a single dunk sparge, my efficiency seems pretty good.

If the bottom grains are getting a bit hotter than 69C you will probably get a nice big beer mouth feel and a slight residual sweetness. Right from the start of my AG brewing when I accidentally over-heated a brew by a small margin, I have been aiming to replicate that style. I try to mash as near to 69C as I can but don't always make it. When I do I get the best beer for my tastes. Your approach might be a way to replicate it. Of course it is a bit inexact so it may not always work the way I am thinking. On the other hand, my attempts to hit the right temperature are a bit hit and miss too. Better attention to weighing grain and measuring temperatures exactly would help me. The good lady bought a nice digital kitchen scale today that will handle up to 5kg. Previously my weighing of grain was dependent on a cheap IKEA Chinese spring scale.... It wasn't great.

 

[Steved53]

What are the thoughts about me adding an Ace boiler to my recently purchased Buffalo 40l?

I was thinking that with the insulation, and tap, and filter, on the Ace would make a good mash tun, and the larger Buffalo would make a good boil kettle.

Does 25l of average gravity wort seem doable in this way, without having to add boiled water to top up? The sparge could be carried out in/over the Buffalo, and then the contents of the Ace added (if using a bag), or the contents of the Ace drained into the Buffalo and then the loose grains in the Ace sparged with the required amount of water, whilst continuing draining into the Buffalo.

Or would two Buffalo 40l boilers give you more options, albeit with the loss of insulation, and the requirement to add a few extras.

Any thoughts?

 

[Fil]

30l is a good tun volume for 5 gallon batches. Though your better off looking at a cold box for a tun than a metal urn. retaining the mash temp with insulation is way more preferable to activly heating the mash without a recirculation system to carry the direct heat away from the grain close to it and denaturing or worse cooking it
the ace would make a nice HLT to prep the strike and sparge water

 

[Tony1951]

30l is a good tun volume for 5 gallon batches. Though your better off looking at a cold box for a tun than a metal urn. retaining the mash temp with insulation is way more preferable to activly heating the mash without a recirculation system to carry the direct heat away from the grain close to it and denaturing or worse cooking it
the ace would make a nice HLT to prep the strike and sparge water

My Ace boiler is insulated. If I pull a thin sleeping bag over it which I do, it only loses about 1 degree c in an hour. I don't use the heater while mashing, but just carefully work out and measure the strike water temperature using an online calculator. Having checked the mash temperature and satisfied myself, I just put the lid on and cover the boiler with a sleeping bag for an hour.

I now mash in the boiler direct without a bag, run off into a FV through the tap and sparge directly back into the boiler and the loose grains with hot water prepared in the kitchen on the hob in my 12l wilko pot. I pre heat water in a kettle during the end of the mash and pour the kettles into the wilko pot on the hob so that at the end of the mash I have ten litres of water at about 80C on teh stove. By the time I use it, it is at about 75C or so.

I stir the grains during sparging and let them settle again for ten or twenty minutes before running into the waiting FV with the first run wort still in there. I catch the first few litres of each run off and pour them back in to the Ace because they are cloudy after the stirring, but it all settles to clear wort after about two or three litres on first opening the tap.

While my first sparge is resting (20 minutes in the hot water) I make another 8 litres ready for the second sparge.

I do three run offs (two sparges) and I have been getting 78% efficiency. My beers with identical gain input have gone from 6% when using a bag, to 7% plus abv without the bag. I think I am just getting much more efficient sparging. The latest IPA is 7.8% abv. in 21 litres of finished beer with 6KG of grain.

I find this works for me very well. I have no bag squeezing or over-hot hands in handling hot wet grains. After the wort has run off, I put a few litres of cold water onto the spent grains in the boiler and carry it a few yards to the garden compost bin and just dump the grains and swill it out. The emptying and cleaning of the boiler ready for the next stage after mashing (hosing it out a couple of times) takes about three minutes tops and I get no drips and mess to speak of.

This may not suit everybody, but the lift of the boiler and dumping the contents of spent grain is an easy lift for me and I am neither young nor Tarzan built. The whole outfit will be less than 20KG which isn't a problem to pick up and carry a few yards. (6kg grain, 6kg of retained water, 3 kg or so of added cold water to liquify and cool the contents and the boiler, 3 kg boiler).


The ACE has been unreliable for some owners which is a shame. Boil cut outs and Covrtich's total failure (tripped out his electricity supply every time he plugged it in) are very disappointing. Mine has worked well though, and only once cut out for a few seconds in more than 16 brews. When mine cut out, I whizzed the thermostat back and forth a few times and it came straight back on. This could be a coincidence, but that is what I did and what happened.

The boil is VERY vigorous with the 2.6Kw element. I am thinking of making a simmer control by using an electric hob simmerstat. these cost about £8 and it is an easy thing to box up safely and make using a switch and power socket box of the sort detailed elsewhere on the forum,

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58980&highlight=simmerstat

I really like mine, but my confidence in it has been dented by the mishaps other people have had.

 

[Fil]

well that tells me then

for your power control issues check out the resistance controlled ssr's simply add a 500k linear pot to bridge its control terminals add a knob and break the live feed over its power terminals and you have a dial up/down power controller.

I added a cheap ebay volt/amp meter to mine to display the output power..

 

[Twostage]

Must say I read the no bag bits with interest. I had two bag failures (trying to improve a perfectly functional knot in the string I was using to close the bottom of the bag. My original knot worked, why did I think I should change it ). Anyway, thinking back, having the boiler full of grain and draining it out wasn't really a problem, just not what I set out to do. The patented Tony's no bag method is interesting, particularly as I'm reading Radical Brewing (reccomended read) and there are some parti gyle brews in there producing a strong and regular beer from the same grist and I was wondering how I could do them BIAB. I might just try the no bag method.

My problem is I will need to have the gas burner fired up to do the sparging but that's not really an issue.

Time to start planning :-)

 

[Tony1951]

well that tells me then

for your power control issues check out the resistance controlled ssr's simply add a 500k linear pot to bridge its control terminals add a knob and break the live feed over its power terminals and you have a dial up/down power controller.

I added a cheap ebay volt/amp meter to mine to display the output power..

Not sure if you think I might have been being a bit @rsy there Fil - certainly wasn't my intention mate. :) I'm probably picking this up wrong - just put it down to senility... LOL.

I'll certainly look up those SSRs - very little experience of power control systems at this end. I Just replaced a set of power controllers on an electric hob for someone I know who had flooded their hob and blew them all up somehow. It was quite easy and I though the units were cheapish. I think those ones work with bi-metalic strips that carry the current and swithc on and off rapidly as they heat up and they don't waste any power. Anyway - I'm gonna look up those things you mention.

I will be interested to hear how Twostage gets on with his experiment in part-gyle brewing. My use of kettles and the wilko 12l pot for producing sparge water is obviously a bit of a clart, but it works quite well for me. Ideally, I would have a three level system, but I just make do with what I have. Typical cheap-skate here. :)

 

[Twostage]

OK. Did a quick check and my BIAB bag fills the boiler completely and effectively lines the boiler so I should be able to stick to BIAB and have the sparging I need.

For the recipe I'm planning to end up with 10 litres of 9% and 20 litres of 4.5% to make the maths/recipe easy. I'm going to kid Brewmate that I'm going to do 40 litres of 4.5 % and then manipulate the mash and sparge volumes. In the Radical Brewing book the first runnings make the strong brew and then in some cases the grist is 'capped' with some steeping grains to change the character/up the ABV for the second runnings. So its a mash, drain, add steep grains, top up with hot water, steep, drain, sparge.

Haven't decided if I'm going to cap or just keep the grist static. Also still haven't decided about the bag. :hmm:

Going to enjoy this, but its going to be a bit frantic with two boils on the go at the same time.

 

[HebridesRob]

OK. Did a quick check and my BIAB bag fills the boiler completely and effectively lines the boiler so I should be able to stick to BIAB and have the sparging I need.

For the recipe I'm planning to end up with 10 litres of 9% and 20 litres of 4.5% to make the maths/recipe easy. I'm going to kid Brewmate that I'm going to do 40 litres of 4.5 % and then manipulate the mash and sparge volumes. In the Radical Brewing book the first runnings make the strong brew and then in some cases the grist is 'capped' with some steeping grains to change the character/up the ABV for the second runnings. So its a mash, drain, add steep grains, top up with hot water, steep, drain, sparge.

Haven't decided if I'm going to cap or just keep the grist static. Also still haven't decided about the bag. :hmm:

Going to enjoy this, but its going to be a bit frantic with two boils on the go at the same time.

Having a bag to heave out does make emptying and cleaning the pot easier, if it serves no other purpose.

 

[Twostage]

Having a bag to heave out does make emptying and cleaning the pot easier, if it serves no other purpose.

Tomorrow is the day for the partigyle. Taken the day off. Worrying about all the water and vessel transfers. I'm sure there's going to be a conflict at some time.

Going to be Challenger hops for the barleywine and Bramling cross for the bitter.

I'll report back after the event.

 

[donchiquon]

I've been eyeing up the ACE as a first step beyond kit tweaks, and am wondering if the current version on ebay is the "new version" mentioned earlier in this thread.

The element is listed as 1600w, and the package includes a tap filter (the mesh hose), a raised bottom filter (perforated SS plate), and a net (grain?) bag.

This sounds different to the version that others have here...any thoughts or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :wha:

 

[Godsdog]

I've been eyeing up the ACE as a first step beyond kit tweaks, and am wondering if the current version on ebay is the "new version" mentioned earlier in this thread.

The element is listed as 1600w, and the package includes a tap filter (the mesh hose), a raised bottom filter (perforated SS plate), and a net (grain?) bag.

This sounds different to the version that others have here...any thoughts or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :wha:

I spoke to skezz the eBay supplier/seller in February and he said his current stock are the ones not updated and expects the new updated ones to be available around April and that he would pm me when he had them,I hope that answers your query

 

[Tony1951]

I've been eyeing up the ACE as a first step beyond kit tweaks, and am wondering if the current version on ebay is the "new version" mentioned earlier in this thread.

The element is listed as 1600w, and the package includes a tap filter (the mesh hose), a raised bottom filter (perforated SS plate), and a net (grain?) bag.

This sounds different to the version that others have here...any thoughts or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :wha:

The spec has certainly changed since I bought mine last June. Mine has a 2500 watt element. It boils like a devil. You will be looking at a longer wait to reach mash temperature and boil of course, but when mine gets going it really is pretty violent so I can't fill to too full.

It has also risen in price by ten percent since I got mine.

 

[donchiquon]

The spec has certainly changed since I bought mine last June. Mine has a 2500 watt element. It boils like a devil. You will be looking at a longer wait to reach mash temperature and boil of course, but when mine gets going it really is pretty violent so I can't fill to too full.

It has also risen in price by ten percent since I got mine.

I spoke to ACE today to get a quote for shipping to Chamonix, and they confirmed that this version had been out a couple of months with the lower power element and the false bottom and bag included.

They are planning to incorporate two elements and an ST1000 (if I remember the model rightly) to improve the temperature control. Sounds like they have some good plans for it.

I was also looking at the 40l Buffalos, which I can get for about �£120 here in France...I like the extra volume but the ACE package looks like it might work better out of the box - not sure if I would need to buy a tap, filter, false bottom etc for the Buffalo? :-? Anyone any thoughts on the two options?

If I had a pint of beer for every hour I spent researching shiny things...:lol:

 

[Tony1951]

I spoke to ACE today to get a quote for shipping to Chamonix, and they confirmed that this version had been out a couple of months with the lower power element and the false bottom and bag included.

They are planning to incorporate two elements and an ST1000 (if I remember the model rightly) to improve the temperature control. Sounds like they have some good plans for it.

I was also looking at the 40l Buffalos, which I can get for about ��£120 here in France...I like the extra volume but the ACE package looks like it might work better out of the box - not sure if I would need to buy a tap, filter, false bottom etc for the Buffalo? :-? Anyone any thoughts on the two options?

If I had a pint of beer for every hour I spent researching shiny things...:lol:

Yes - shiny things are always nice.

I've been very happy with my ACE but some other folks have had less than great experiences with cutting out during the boil and suchlike. Covrich had one that tripped off his power as soon as he plugged it in and sent it back.

My only problem is that at 25 litres max with a roaring boil (2.5KW) I have to boil a small amount of my wort on the hob and use it to top up my boiler as it evaporates off. This works great for me and I am very happy with the work around. When I mash, I end up with about 28 litres of wort which can't all be accommodated in the ACE. I just fill it to the max mark and put the rest in a pan on the hob. I always have to take care at the start of the boil when the top of the wort gets a foamy sticky cover which can rise up and come over a bit like milk will do. I stir the top like mad and it drops away and vanishes in a couple of minutes. the other danger time for boil over is when I put in my wirfloc tablet about fifteen minutes before turn off. That increases the stickiness of the wort for a few minutes until it drops out with the protein hazes makers and then it reverts to normal wort. The other thing is NEVER put the lid on during the boil. With my 2.5KW element this will induce a rise up of the wort and has made a mess when I tried it.

I never use the timer, and the temperature control is ball-park rather than strictly accurate. Take care when mashing and use a thermometer so you get the mash temperature right.

 

[donchiquon]

Yes - shiny things are always nice.

I've been very happy with my ACE but some other folks have had less than great experiences with cutting out during the boil and suchlike. Covrich had one that tripped off his power as soon as he plugged it in and sent it back.

My only problem is that at 25 litres max with a roaring boil (2.5KW) I have to boil a small amount of my wort on the hob and use it to top up my boiler as it evaporates off. This works great for me and I am very happy with the work around. When I mash, I end up with about 28 litres of wort which can't all be accommodated in the ACE. I just fill it to the max mark and put the rest in a pan on the hob. I always have to take care at the start of the boil when the top of the wort gets a foamy sticky cover which can rise up and come over a bit like milk will do. I stir the top like mad and it drops away and vanishes in a couple of minutes. the other danger time for boil over is when I put in my wirfloc tablet about fifteen minutes before turn off. That increases the stickiness of the wort for a few minutes until it drops out with the protein hazes makers and then it reverts to normal wort. The other thing is NEVER put the lid on during the boil. With my 2.5KW element this will induce a rise up of the wort and has made a mess when I tried it.

I never use the timer, and the temperature control is ball-park rather than strictly accurate. Take care when mashing and use a thermometer so you get the mash temperature right.

Thanks Tony. I've just pushed the button on the ACE. I like the way it includes a bunch of other bits that I (think) I'll need to move up from kits (false bottom, mesh grain bag etc) and if I ever decide to buy anything bigger I can always keep it as a hot liquor tank.

Have taken careful note of your mashing and boiling technique :thumb:

What do you think is the maximum size brew you could do in the boiler without resorting to the kitchen hob?

 

[Tony1951]

Thanks Tony. I've just pushed the button on the ACE. I like the way it includes a bunch of other bits that I (think) I'll need to move up from kits (false bottom, mesh grain bag etc) and if I ever decide to buy anything bigger I can always keep it as a hot liquor tank.

Have taken careful note of your mashing and boiling technique :thumb:

What do you think is the maximum size brew you could do in the boiler without resorting to the kitchen hob?

Well you can get about 25 litres in and you can top up with a boiling kettle as things go on through the boil. I did that a few times and it worked fine. You lose some to trub of course. I reckon I used to get about 20 - 21 litres out without resorting to fancy tricks and if you put in the full 23 litre brew's worth of grain and hops, you can always add back some water at the end in the FV.

Honestly - if you're prepared to have a go and try other ideas you won't be much put out by the boiler size I don't think. I hope you enjoy your new shiny thing and that the problems some folk have had have been ironed out now.