Water Chemistry

Hi I'm new to the Forum and would like to say Hi to all.

Just got hold of a load of kit from a lovely guy who has decided to concentrate on wine.
I want to make a fine pilsner style lager and I live in East Anglia where the water could not be less suited to this style of beer

Hardness mg CaCO3: 293 ppm/l
Sulphate SO4-2: 26 ppm/l
Sodium Na: 10.6 ppm/l
Chloride Cl: 23 ppm/l
Alkalinity HCO3: 309ppm
Hydrogen Ion (PH Value) 7.1 but reading from the tap 7.81

So I bought some AMS to use at 8ml / 23l of water to reduce the hardness by 64ppm and worked out that I should use about 50ml for about 32/33l of water for 4.6kg of grist

However this raises the Chloride by 7.8 ppm and the sulphate by 10.8ppm/l

How do i get a full balanced water profile

* Target minerals for a pilsner lager

I couldn't find a value for Magnesium on the affinity water website for my region - so 2 is a made up number

I have no chemistry whatsoever- so I kind of need laymen speak if poss?

Hope there are some budding brewing chemists out there that cab help

Short answer is you can't if you want that profile. Have a look at Spotless water, see if there is a refill station near you. Spotless is a blank slate (no minerals) so you can just add salts to get the profile you need. Only about 5p per litre. You do need some containers to put it in though.

Thankyou 2stage, "salt and mineral prefix" i can see a brand new line of brewing products here!

And if i stick with my water with an AMS dose, a campden tablet and maybe a little gypsum will it disgusting to the purist or am i being obsessive again?

You should be fine with your plan to use AMS. The combined sulphate after you use AMS is still only 37ppm, which remains in the "naff all" bracket. And as you point out ... "maybe a little gypsum" which I understand the Pilsner breweries add to their water 'cos it's so devoid of useful elements (you probably need no gypsum 'cos your water already has a scrap of calcium and sulphate).

Magnesium: It's common to have no Magnesium value because the labs concentrate on getting an old-fashioned "Hardness" figure out. "Hardness" covers both Calcium and Magnesium, and display it measured "as CaCO3". You'd think "CaCO3" stands for "Calcium Carbonate" ... and you won't be alone thinking that. But it's bol*****. You get used to the fairy tales after a while.


More irreverent comments in my signature links vvvvv. I fink it uses "layman speak"?

[EDIT: Sorry, getting mixed up with who I'm quoting! It's alright now ... ?]

Just get some DWP and you will be good to go. Is Anglia water your supplier?

Edit: DWB is the brewing product the other one is my father

MashBag said:

Just get some DWP ...

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DWB! What've you got on your mind?

Anyway, I think DWB is mainly gypsum? And that's been covered above (looking for "Pils"-like water treatment).

first heard of DWB about 3 hours ago and need to do some reading, this is a rabbit hole, but I love this **** . Knowledge is power and all that

so as a newbee to the site, I'll spend some time digging around the threads but what sounds interesting is a blank water profile and building what you want for the so called perfect brew..

Very impressed with the comments, please keep them coming...

This and other “discussions” on the forum on the subject of water chemistry has lead me to the opinion that it is anything BUT water chemistry. More like water art. Chemistry to me is something that is precise and predictable. Follow the formula and the answer is always, ALWAYS the same! Water art will give you different answers depending what “calculator” you use and you’re guaranteed will be different from other “calculators”. As for @peebee defuddler, well no offence but I’m totally befuddled! More a reflection of my ability to understand this “subject” than the defuddler. Rant over. Sorry about that

Buffers brewery said:

... As for @peebee defuddler, well no offence but I’m totally befuddled! More a reflection of my ability to understand this “subject” than the defuddler ...

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But have you followed the advice it was giving? Fill those six boxes in at the top and job done. There is nothing more the spreadsheet can do for you. If you are unfortunate, you must dip into the "Foetid Mire" to fill in all six boxes. But if you just do the bare minimum, you should be able to get the answer you are after without getting side-tracked.

But if you try to understand the "Mire", if you doubt its output, if you need to believe "CaCO3" must mean "chalk" or "limestone" when talking about water (which unfortunately is what logic will have you believe), then you are lost and will bathe in the Foetid Mire for longer than I'd dare imagine. But please remember, it wasn't me who did the "befuddling", it is the home-brewing heroes you've been believing previously. Believing, but not understanding, it's not their intention for you to "understand".

Very important: The "Defuddler" isn't a "calculator"! It only "conditions" the information you have so that you can plug it into a "calculator" without it leading you off to places that your Mother will have warned you not to go near.

Keep trying and it'll fall into place eventually. What I would suggest is for now you should try to forget all you've learnt about some middle-ages mythical non-science concerning "water-hardness". That subject should have died out with wizards, griffins and magic potions. Learn more about it when your understanding is mended and the likes of "water hardness" can't infect your intelligence anymore.

peebee said:

DWB! What've you got on your mind?

Anyway, I think DWB is mainly gypsum? And that's been covered above (looking for "Pils"-like water treatment).

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Sorry about the typo. It is one I don't see (fathers initials )

Better than gypsum.

Buffers brewery said:

This and other “discussions” on the forum on the subject of water chemistry has lead me to the opinion that it is anything BUT water chemistry. More like water art.

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I like that. Certainly was for me too.
I had to upgrade my view of it to been able to logically cope. Water art covers it pretty well.

After you have moved on, you can ask "how do I get n water and avoid the monumental ammount of online sh1te".

The answer for me was to pick an informative source & stick with it (only). If it fails repeat. Until you have a process and a product supply that works.

And "water chemistry" will fill your cupboard with stuff you only needs sparrows handfull of.

@peebee nothing aimed at you. We aim for the same goal but navigate to it in a very different way.

MashBag said:

@peebee nothing aimed at you. ...

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One of the things I've found being pushed into more of a teaching role than a student one is the old adage; it's easier to teach beginners that don't come with their own ideas cluttered with all the cobblers that came with it. (Or perhaps the saying "you can't teach old dogs new tricks").

It was easy for me to shake off the cobblers: I got a "reboot"! (Erm ... I don't recommend a "reboot", more often it ends with brown bread).

Hi all, Happy Sunday!
Beginning my AG journey in Spain soon- already do AG in UK, but just bought a Brewster Beacon to do full volume, no sparge IPAs and hop forward "lagers".
Could someone please cast an eye over this mineral water and tell me if I need to add any salts, or whether it'd be ok on its own?
(Tap water is from well, and I wouldn't drink it even boiled..!!!)
Thanks all.

I'll give this a crack, but I don't hold out much hope on what bottle labels say. Into the "Defuddler" with it! (grind, whir, twange ...)

Cor! The "Alkalinity" (as "Bicarbonate") is calculated, so I never used the "bicarbonate" measure on the bottle, but it's come out within 1mg/L anyway. Still, it's a bit high. About right for the older idea of "mineral water", but the UK bottled water home-brewers often use are often much more lightly mineralised. Anyway, if you treat it to lower the alkalinity (e.g. acids), it should be good even for lighter beers and a base for much anything. Dated 2020 ... I don't know how trustworthy this analysis is now. You don't have to worry about treating sparge water ... 'cos you don't sparge!

I wouldn't see "Silica" listed normally, but I've chucked it in to assist with the calculations. It's in "miscellaneous ions" ... "(see B" ... oops, a bug ... I'll need to sort that (but its only a display bug). And "RA (Kolbach)" is still in there ... ignore that, the whole subject of "RA" is hokum and I haven't removed it from the "Defuddler" yet! And it doesn't have an "additions" section ... yet!

Thanks for this opportunity. I'm sure the Forumites here have felt deprived having not had a reguler posting of it from me of late.

peebee said:

I wouldn't see "Silica" listed normally, ...

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Not even sure I got it translated correctly. I "fudged" it to include it, but would probably best ignore it altogether (it's only 5mg/L). It is soluble, e.g. as water glass, but coming across "The anions are often polymeric" is quite enough for me! Ignore it.

Ha!

peebee said:

... I "fudged" it to include it, but would probably best ignore it altogether (it's only 5mg/L). ...

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I should read my own running narration in the "Defuddler":

Total Alkalinity = ∑conservative-cations - ∑conservative-anions = [HCO3-]+2[CO3--]+[B(OH)4-]+[OH-]+[HPO4--]+2[PO4---]+[H3SiO4-]+[NH3]+[HS-]-[H+]-[HSO4-]-[HF]-[H3PO4]-[HNO3]

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Or: Silicate is not a "conservative-anion". Like "phosphates", silicates contributes to "Total Alkalinity" and must be ignored (they are already counted)! Although I think "Carbonate-Alkalinity" is being passed off as "Total Alkalinity". But, I didn't write the rules, so ignored it shall be :


Well, that were easy. Shame calculated "Bicarbonate" ("Alkalinity") creeps up a bit ... all of four parts-per-million above what is scribbled on the bottles. But I'll live with that (especially as I don't have to tangle with "polimeric anions"!).

peebee said:

I'll give this a crack, but I don't hold out much hope on what bottle labels say. Into the "Defuddler" with it! (grind, whir, twange ...)
View attachment 103450
Cor! The "Alkalinity" (as "Bicarbonate") is calculated, so I never used the "bicarbonate" measure on the bottle, but it's come out within 1mg/L anyway. Still, it's a bit high. About right for the older idea of "mineral water", but the UK bottled water home-brewers often use are often much more lightly mineralised. Anyway, if you treat it to lower the alkalinity (e.g. acids), it should be good even for lighter beers and a base for much anything. Dated 2020 ... I don't know how trustworthy this analysis is now. You don't have to worry about treating sparge water ... 'cos you don't sparge!

I wouldn't see "Silica" listed normally, but I've chucked it in to assist with the calculations. It's in "miscellaneous ions" ... "(see B" ... oops, a bug ... I'll need to sort that (but its only a display bug). And "RA (Kolbach)" is still in there ... ignore that, the whole subject of "RA" is hokum and I haven't removed it from the "Defuddler" yet! And it doesn't have an "additions" section ... yet!

Thanks for this opportunity. I'm sure the Forumites here have felt deprived having not had a reguler posting of it from me of late.

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Thanks PeeBee!

Buffers brewery said:

This and other “discussions” on the forum on the subject of water chemistry has lead me to the opinion that it is anything BUT water chemistry. More like water art. Chemistry to me is something that is precise and predictable. Follow the formula and the answer is always, ALWAYS the same! Water art will give you different answers depending what “calculator” you use and you’re guaranteed will be different from other “calculators”. As for @peebee defuddler, well no offence but I’m totally befuddled! More a reflection of my ability to understand this “subject” than the defuddler. Rant over. Sorry about that

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Good rant...I have alot of sympathy for that.

Ultimately the key is to choose one calculator and stick to it...then everything is referential. Ideally you want to be experimenting with water additions/chemistry anyway to see how it impacts the final beer and the key is to start from a consistent base. Everyone is transfixed on a target profile, but often these target profiles are a red herring because they are based on traditional styles and back In the day that was what they had to work with so they brewed the style of beer to suit the water. They had no idea about the chemistry back then either and just did the best with what they had. Ideally you don't need to be constrained by the 'classic water profiles' and experiment to find what works best for you and the beer you're brewing. I did see an interview a while back with a well regarded US brewer who switched the water profiles for his NEIPA's and West Coasts and apparently the two beers were much improved by that simple change completely changing the accepted convention on what water profile suits those beer styles, so the rules are there are no rules.

But the big elephant in the room is the source water. Without consistent source water then you have no idea where you are and if you're using tap water then your source water is not consistent. Your published water report is only an annual average and your water may vary from day to day...will be different after a big rain storm or a long period of no rain. Your water company is not managing the mineral content of your water, they're just monitoring it and reporting on it and making sure it's not poisonous. They dont give a stuff about the actual mineral profile.

You can minimise the impact by paying for a quarterly lab test and take account of any changes, but even then it's only correct for that sample on that day. So ultimately it would be interesting to understand the tolerance for a specific water profile....if you had a consistent water supply and made a few back to back beers varying the additions then how far away from your baseline target profile can you get before you notice some impact on the final beer. I know water does impact the final beer because as soon as I started using a calculator and focussing on water I did notice an improvement in my beer, but I'm not sure on the sensitivity of it. Is the tolerance band +/- 100ppm or +/- 400ppm? Also I've seen upper limits for some minerals like make sure your ppm of calcium isn't higher than x amount. Maybe the variation in your tap water is within tolerance so you don't have to worry about it, maybe it's not. Ultimately it only matters if you are chasing consistency which is one of the primary things I'm interested in. If you're not bothered about consistency then it matters not so long as the beer is good.

You can use some rule-of-thumb water treatments and not worry too much about the chemistry or specific water profiles.

The main reason for water treatment is to get the mash pH in the right ball-park for the enzymes in the mash to do their thing, in the range 5.2-5.6 with 5.4 as a default (I prefer the lower end of the range). If you use distilled water the pH will be at the high end when using pale malt and will be below the low end when using dark malt. The upshot of this is that you need to add very little of anything if you’re mashing with pale malt but you need to add some alkalinity when mashing with dark malts. Conveniently, tap water is a great source of alkalinity. My tap water is quite similar to the OP so I blend tap water and RO water - 3/4 tap water for dark beers, 1/2 for amber beers, 1/4 tap water for pale beers. For each recipe if the measured pH is out during the mash I adjust the proportions next time I brew.

Next, you want to avoid any chance of your beer tasting medicinal from chlorine and chloramine by adding 1/2 a crushed campden tablet to your brewing water. I have to say none of my beers have ever tasted medicinal but these days I always add a little campden as a prevention measure.

Finally there’s the “mouthfeel & flavour” of the beer and the received wisdom is that for hoppy beers you need more sulphate ions in the water, for malty beers you need more chloride ions. There is one exception, NEIPAs are hoppy but are treated as malty because these beers are supposed to be soft and juicy in the mouth. To address these requirements you can just add a level-teaspoon of calcium chloride to the water for malty beers or a level-teaspoon of calcium sulphate to the water for hoppy beers. Put half of each in beers that sit in the middle if you like. The calcium you add here will also be needed for the mash chemistry but as long as you added some calcium chloride and/or calcium sulphate, you’re grand.

That’s my own defuddler. None of this is going to be “right” but you’ll be in the ball-park without science or calculators.

hoppyscotty said:

Good rant...I have alot of sympathy for that. ...

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So, it seems odd that I, named as being a "befuddler", is liking a post actively criticising the complexity of "water calculators" and "water profilers"?

But, (believe it or not, and I get the impression the majority prefer to be in the "not" camp) I aim to get to a simple solution. The "Defuddler" has been arranged so the only interesting outputs can be clipped off within a few lines. It is intended to split off only what's useable from the volumes of junk associated with a water report. But I have to be completely transparent about what I'm doing, because there are hordes of people trying to ridicule what I'm doing. And that is why I'm often embroiled in complex reasoning.

And always remember the "Defuddler" is NOT a brewing water profile generator! It only trims the "un-required" from a water report ... and that includes any trace of "Hardness" nonsense (including "as CaCO3", etc.). And that's complicated ... for me not you!

I'm still having to learn (or remember!) things, like above coming across "silicates" and having to remember they are included with "Alkalinity" ... but I don't expect others to remember it, only my distractors (so they know I'm accounting for it, even if some have never had a clue why it needs accounted for in such a way). Not just distractors ... I'm also open to prompts from experts!

Calculated "Alkalinity" (as opposed to reading a dubious value off a sheet) is key to what I'm doing. It offers the possibility of adapting to day-to-day changes at a moment's whim ... the spreadsheet can already do that, but I need an easy way to get the necessary inputs for it. It (calculated alkalinity) is also dead easy and never "unbalanced". I'm bemused why brewers seem to have avoided calculating alkalinity ... is there a reason? It'll take a while convincing HBers it's okay.



And a brewing water profile builder. I am planning one! Built on the same lines as the Defuddler. No nonsense (or at least the nonsense hidden away so nutcases can find it if they want it). I have started on it! "RA" is the first casualty left in the gutter (it's bo11o***, but no criticism of Mr Kolbach, he never intended it to be used like HBers are using it). But getting a reliable mash "pH" prediction is a bit of a nightmare. May have to be something along the lines of >this< (that's simple!).