Yeast starters and pitching rates for a hefe

[zombrewer]

Hi all, I was planning on making Pittsy's hefe this Saturday, and am just making a 1l starter with 100g DME. The yeast (a WLP380) is dated best before 10 April 2014, so bottled a litle over 3 months ago... giving it a viability of 26%, according to Mr Malty. I'm pretty new to this whole starter thing - this will be my third - but do have a stir plate... even with this, it's stating that for a 1l starter I'd need five vials of yeast this age... otherwise I'd need to pitch two vials into 2.26l. Even so, that would be £13 or so just on yeast.

Am I missing something? I realise some people recommend underpitching a hefeweizen a little for more phenols etc. but would pitching the starter I'll have by Saturday be way too under? I'd sooner leave off brewing this weekend if there's a chance I could ruin it by rushing things... my very first all-grain (this will be #7) was a kolsch that is pretty terrible as I massively under-pitched (old vial without a starter)... it then got stuck, and I had to pitch whatever yeast I had on-hand. I'm on the verge of dumping the 20 or so bottles I have left as it's just not being drunk with the other beers I have on hand now, & I need the bottles!!

The only other liquid yeast I've used since switching to all grain & buying the stir plate was for a saison (Wyeast 3711), don't remember the age of the smack pack, but I made a 1l starter using the same method above & it took off like a champion.

Thanks in advance :thumb:

 

[NickW]

I've only done 3 or 4 starters in the past but, once the yeast in the starter has fermented out the 100g of DME you should have a nice healthy yeast cell count for a nice fermentation. No matter if the vial was 10% viable or 100% viable.

someone correct me on this if I'm talking rubbish :)

 

[Dave1970]

I'm under the impression that it's a good idea to pitch low into a weissbeer to help with generating the flavours

quoting from Aleman's Effin Erdinger recipe

"The usual rule is to pitch big . . . Don't . . . this is one of those times when under pitching into cold wort is a good idea. . . If you are using dry yeast (WB-06) one sachet into wort at 12C is fine . . . gradually allow the wort to heat up over the next 4 days to 18C and allow it to finish at that temperature . . . If using Wyeast 3068 or the Whitelabs equivalent . . . pitch the smack pack or tube directly into the wort at 12C, again allow it to rise to 18C over the next 4 or 5 days. . . . this will generate those lovely banana and clove flavours."

I've done this with a single Whitelabs vial (don't know how old it was) and it worked fine

 

[zombrewer]

Thanks to you both, will pitch the starter and not worry too much about it then... now just hope I won't now be reducing the amount of delicious banana / clove flavours by over-pitching :lol:

 

[pittsy]

I'm under the impression that it's a good idea to pitch low into a weissbeer to help with generating the flavours

quoting from Aleman's Effin Erdinger recipe

"The usual rule is to pitch big . . . Don't . . . this is one of those times when under pitching into cold wort is a good idea. . . If you are using dry yeast (WB-06) one sachet into wort at 12C is fine . . . gradually allow the wort to heat up over the next 4 days to 18C and allow it to finish at that temperature . . . If using Wyeast 3068 or the Whitelabs equivalent . . . pitch the smack pack or tube directly into the wort at 12C, again allow it to rise to 18C over the next 4 or 5 days. . . . this will generate those lovely banana and clove flavours."

This pitching cold ain't what it's cracked up to be , the idea comes from being able to maintain the ferment temp once it's started in the old German brew houses . The rule of 30 once was about if you wanted to ferment at 18c then you should pitch at 12c , this was because no cooling was possible and overheating was avoided by stopping the yeast generate too much heat . If you pitch the yeast at 18/20c for example then the yeast would increase the temp by a 2 to 4 degrees which would be too warm . Nowadays we have cooling so this practice is not followed any more .
You will get far more banana from step mashing than stressing the yeast .
Under pitching is the norm for a hefe but only a bit below an ale and not like half or less even .
I would always make a starter around a litre , this is to get the yeast healthy and viable more than anything . What you want is the brew to take off like a rocket , if it doesn't you've under pitched or the yeast wasn't too great .
Under pitching (too much ) will get a stuck ferment or a slow 1 at least , it should be fermented in around 4 to 5 days but 10 days is needed before bottling (assuming it has fermented ) .
Go for it :thumb:

p.s i recommend 20c ferment , if pitching at 15c increase temp over 24rs to 20c

 

[Aleman]

Nowadays we have cooling so this practice is not followed any more .

Actually the number of German breweries that still practice it is quite considerable, the ultra modern ones probably not so much, but then they don't produce a wheat beer with the requisite flavours anyway

 

[pittsy]

Very true :thumb: they also don't step mash or decoction too and it shows with some of em . Bloody profit margins i guess

 

[zombrewer]

I'm under the impression that it's a good idea to pitch low into a weissbeer to help with generating the flavours

quoting from Aleman's Effin Erdinger recipe

"The usual rule is to pitch big . . . Don't . . . this is one of those times when under pitching into cold wort is a good idea. . . If you are using dry yeast (WB-06) one sachet into wort at 12C is fine . . . gradually allow the wort to heat up over the next 4 days to 18C and allow it to finish at that temperature . . . If using Wyeast 3068 or the Whitelabs equivalent . . . pitch the smack pack or tube directly into the wort at 12C, again allow it to rise to 18C over the next 4 or 5 days. . . . this will generate those lovely banana and clove flavours."

This pitching cold ain't what it's cracked up to be , the idea comes from being able to maintain the ferment temp once it's started in the old German brew houses . The rule of 30 once was about if you wanted to ferment at 18c then you should pitch at 12c , this was because no cooling was possible and overheating was avoided by stopping the yeast generate too much heat . If you pitch the yeast at 18/20c for example then the yeast would increase the temp by a 2 to 4 degrees which would be too warm . Nowadays we have cooling so this practice is not followed any more .
You will get far more banana from step mashing than stressing the yeast .
Under pitching is the norm for a hefe but only a bit below an ale and not like half or less even .
I would always make a starter around a litre , this is to get the yeast healthy and viable more than anything . What you want is the brew to take off like a rocket , if it doesn't you've under pitched or the yeast wasn't too great .
Under pitching (too much ) will get a stuck ferment or a slow 1 at least , it should be fermented in around 4 to 5 days but 10 days is needed before bottling (assuming it has fermented ) .
Go for it :thumb:

p.s i recommend 20c ferment , if pitching at 15c increase temp over 24rs to 20c

Thanks Pittsy, hopefully the 1l starter should be good to go by tonight then! I don't have the abitity the properly chill unfortunately (no brew fridge) but 15 > 20 sounds doable, house is about 19-20 degrees & can chuck it in a cold water bath if it gets too hot. I'm just heating water now, still trying to figure out how I'm going to step mash with an electric boiler :wha:

Infusion is the way to go it seems, but volumes (and how to keep the additional water at the correct temps) are another matter!

 

[Dr Mike]

Hi all, I was planning on making Pittsy's hefe this Saturday, and am just making a 1l starter with 100g DME. The yeast (a WLP380) is dated best before 10 April 2014, so bottled a litle over 3 months ago... giving it a viability of 26%, according to Mr Malty. I'm pretty new to this whole starter thing - this will be my third - but do have a stir plate... even with this, it's stating that for a 1l starter I'd need five vials of yeast this age... otherwise I'd need to pitch two vials into 2.26l. Even so, that would be £13 or so just on yeast.

I can't help but think the MrMalty prediction on viability with age might be over-pessimistic. According to that, a four month old package, which is still 'in date', would only be 10% viable. I don't believe Whitelabs or Wyeast would claim a 4 month shelf life if it went away that quickly.

 

[zombrewer]

So, looking at your temps & timings, & using Beersmith:

Mash in with 10l @ 55 degrees for 40 mins
Add 10l at 75.2 to get to 64 degrees for 20 mins
Add 15l at 81.5 to get to 71 for 40 mins
No mash out

I'm not sure I have enough pans! I've done a sparge step my last couple of brews to oncrease efficiency, but think I'll be leaving it out this time, not sure the volumes will work :?

 

[zombrewer]

Hi all, I was planning on making Pittsy's hefe this Saturday, and am just making a 1l starter with 100g DME. The yeast (a WLP380) is dated best before 10 April 2014, so bottled a litle over 3 months ago... giving it a viability of 26%, according to Mr Malty. I'm pretty new to this whole starter thing - this will be my third - but do have a stir plate... even with this, it's stating that for a 1l starter I'd need five vials of yeast this age... otherwise I'd need to pitch two vials into 2.26l. Even so, that would be £13 or so just on yeast.

I can't help but think the MrMalty prediction on viability with age might be over-pessimistic. According to that, a four month old package, which is still 'in date', would only be 10% viable. I don't believe Whitelabs or Wyeast would claim a 4 month shelf life if it went away that quickly.

Thanks Mike, I did wonder about that myself! The starter looks good & healthy, so I'm not going to worry about it :thumb: