Yeast properties

[Fender Precision]

Can anyone tell me about the common types of yeast used in brewing. Im at a loss here and Im not sure why Im replacing the yeast supplied with the kit for safale s04. I know it works better but why? and what are the properties of different yeasts ?
MIck

 

[Moley]

This isn't my department, I'm a winemaker who does a bit of brewing, but I can tell you from personal experience that if you split a wort and ferment with two different yeasts you will get two different beers.

Yeasts packed with the kits are usually a generic brewing yeast which are probably pretty cheap and nothing special, they will do the job but it can be done better.

 

[Aleman]

Brewers make wort . . . Yeast makes beer!

80% or more of the flavour compounds found in beer are produced by the yeast during fermentation. . .different strains produce different flavour profiles . . . and surprising different beers.

Take the ingredients to make a Belgian Abbaye beer, and make the wort . . .pitch it with Nottingham . . . and you will get an uninspiring beer . . .pitch it with Wyeast Abbaye yeast . . . totally different beer.

Often the silver foil yeast supplied with kits are only about 5 or 6g . . . which is not really enough to ferment 5 gallons of wort, where ideally you need a minimum of 11g (of dried yeast), Most of the additional yeasts are now 11 or 12g . . . If you don't pitch enough you can run into fermentation problems that would have been avoided using more yeast

 

[evanvine]

If you don't pitch enough you can run into fermentation problems that would have been avoided using more yeast

That has always puzzled me Tony, as the yeast multiplies!
What am I missing here?

 

[luckyeddie]

I think it's more a lag-time thing, isn't it? If you use a yeast starter to increase the cell count before pitching into your wort, you've already got them up to speed, so they should rock and roll in no time at all. Just pitching an inadequate number of cells means that it takes a bit of time to get going - and increases the chance of wild yeast infections that otherwise would be overwhelmed.

There might be quite a bit of misinformation and half-truths in what I have posted here, so hopefully one of the site experts will put us straight on one or two things.

 

[Aleman]

I think it's more a lag-time thing, isn't it? If you use a yeast starter to increase the cell count before pitching into your wort, you've already got them up to speed, so they should rock and roll in no time at all.

Consider that 1g of dried yeast contains approximately 20 Billion cells, and for a normal strength ale (up to 1.060) you look to pitch 1 million cells per ml . . .For 23L you will need 230 billion cells or about 11-12g of dried yeast. . . . now lets look at the 1L starter that a lot of brewers make up you are pitching 230 Billion cells in 1 Litre or 230Million cells per ml . . .a tad over pitching . . given that density they use up the starter sugars before they even start to reproduce . .so a 1L starter does absolutely nothing to increase cell count . . .apart from using up the reserves that the manufacturer encouraged them to build up, before drying them, so that they are ready to work when we pitch them.

 

[evanvine]

so a 1L starter does absolutely nothing to increase cell count

That is where I'm coming from, I'm looking at a 23ltr starter!! :wha:

 

[phettebs]

apart from using up the reserves that the manufacturer encouraged them to build up, before drying them, so that they are ready to work when we pitch them.

I was under the impression that one should never make a starter with dry yeast for that reason. It's ready to pitch. Making a starter with dry yeast actually depletes the yeast of its stored reserves.

Liquid yeast, a completely different story...

 

[Ceejay]

Consider that 1g of dried yeast contains approximately 20 Billion cells, and for a normal strength ale (up to 1.060) you look to pitch 1 million cells per ml . . .For 23L you will need 230 billion cells or about 11-12g of dried yeast. . . . now lets look at the 1L starter that a lot of brewers make up you are pitching 230 Billion cells in 1 Litre or 230Million cells per ml . . .a tad over pitching . . given that density they use up the starter sugars before they even start to reproduce . .so a 1L starter does absolutely nothing to increase cell count . . .apart from using up the reserves that the manufacturer encouraged them to build up, before drying them, so that they are ready to work when we pitch them.

When you out it like that, it's so simple. I will not ever do that again!

So, a question about liquid yeast (Whitelabs in partciular), on their website it states:

"White Labs Pitchable yeast is packaged with 70 to 140 billion yeast cells, which corresponds approximately to a 1-2 liter size starter."

Why is this different to the numbers quoted for dried yeast?

 

[shearclass]

Aleman, is there anything you don't know on home brewing?!

You've replied to a few of my posts recently, and have been very helpful. As a newbie kit brewer, is it best for me to scrap the yeast in the kit and buy some other yeast, or should i buy a another packet of dry yeast to add to the existing pack?

If so how do i know what yeast to buy? I assume there are links somewhere on the forum.

I tried to search through the forums for yeaster starters, but from reading your post, you seem to be saying that producing starters for the dry yeast in the kits is counter productive? Therfore i assume the only option is to buy extra yeast (is this liquid yeast?) or otherwise stick with what's in the kit (which i think you have said is inadequate)

 

[Ceejay]

Aleman, is there anything you don't know on home brewing?!

You've replied to a few of my posts recently, and have been very helpful. As a newbie kit brewer, is it best for me to scrap the yeast in the kit and buy some other yeast, or should i buy a another packet of dry yeast to add to the existing pack?

If so how do i know what yeast to buy? I assume there are links somewhere on the forum.

I tried to search through the forums for yeaster starters, but from reading your post, you seem to be saying that producing starters for the dry yeast in the kits is counter productive? Therfore i assume the only option is to buy extra yeast (is this liquid yeast?) or otherwise stick with what's in the kit (which i think you have said is inadequate)

All the advice on this forum points to ditching the kit yeast in favour of reliable dry yeasts. Have a look at the following link, for the choices:

http://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=4

As per Aleman's advice above, all of these should just be pitched into well aerated wort at the correct temperature :thumb:

 

[shearclass]

Great stuff ceejay, thanks, I'll have a look at that link later tonight.

 

[Aleman]

Aleman, is there anything you don't know on home brewing?!

The more I know about brewing . . . the more I realise there is to know.
To give you a bit of my background, which might help put my posts and interest in brewing in perspective. I started brewing around 1980, before the internet had escaped from CERN, and studied for my first degree in biology, which was followed by my second in Biochemistry and plant physiology. This was where I really got the bug for brewing, and among several of my early jobs was three years spent working for one of the biggest regional brewers in the north west, where I had access to a good lab, the brewing library, and the IBD journals. I have still maintained my interest in the theoretical side of brewing, and although I am trying to find the time to write a book about Craftbrewing best practice, life is defeating me continually. I really must find the time to at least start work on a wiki to try and organise some of my ramblings.

As a newbie kit brewer, is it best for me to scrap the yeast in the kit and buy some other yeast, or should i buy a another packet of dry yeast to add to the existing pack?

Sometime the yeast provided with kits is actually quite good (Muntons for example use the premium gold yeast in their kits, and Coopers European actually ships with an, unnamed, lager yeast), however as I mentioned in the earlier post the quantity is below what a lot of respected brewers consider to be the minimum Home brew Pitching Rate (HPR). Now you could consider pitching another sachet of dried yeast along with the kit yeast, and indeed many commercial brewers use multi strain yeasts, but I would suggest keeping it simple for the time being, and just pitch an additional sachet of dried yeast. . . Why not the kit yeast . . . well it's likely to be old, stored in a shop at shop temperatures (probably too hot), and even when dehydrated, yeast viability does decrease with time, especially stored at room temperatures, (Ideally even dried yeast should be stored in a freezer)

If so how do i know what yeast to buy? I assume there are links somewhere on the forum.

Well you could always ask My favourite dried yeasts are Nottingham (Very neutral flavours a bit boring but good in stouts), and Windsor (produces more esters than nottingham, great for ales and milds). Then there is S04 which is similar to Windsor, but IMO has a problem with dropping out early . . . its a good bottling yeast, and great in stouts. Another good yeast is US05 which is superb in hoppy pale ales, bringing hops to the fore but can also be considered one dimensional in that respect, it also has the habit of sitting on the surface of the wort and laughing at you trying to get it to clear. For lagers you can consider S23 and my favourite W34/70 which if you pitch enough and ferment cool (<16C) produce very nice lagers . . . much better than using the ale yeast supplied with most kits.

I tried to search through the forums for yeaster starters, but from reading your post, you seem to be saying that producing starters for the dry yeast in the kits is counter productive?

No I am saying that using a 1L starter for dry yeast is a complete waste of time . . .You need to be considering at least a 5L starter, and I have used 20L starters for Lagers (ok 60Lwort volume . . . pitching the entire starter so 80L total beer volume), and also for strong ales . . .It's not a total loss as I usually make a 20L batch of beer and pitch my big beer on the yeast cake at left in the FV.

Therfore i assume the only option is to buy extra yeast (is this liquid yeast?) or otherwise stick with what's in the kit (which i think you have said is inadequate)

I would not consider liquid yeasts for kits as they really benefit from proper temperature control to get the best out of them. As CJ says there are plenty of good quality dried yeasts on the market, and it is probably worth experimenting with those to find one that suits the beers you like to brew. . . . Another 1.50 for yeast pushes the price of the beer up, but the improvement in quality is worth it.

 

[Aleman]

Aleman, is there anything you don't know on home brewing?!

I started brewing around 1980, before the internet had escaped from CERN, and studied for my first degree in biology, which was followed by my second in Biochemistry and plant physiology. This was where I really got the bug for brewing, and among several of my early jobs was three years spent working for one of the biggest regional brewers in the north west, where I had access to a good lab, the brewing library, and the IBD journals.

And this is also the reason that I come across as a big headed, arrogant, know it all, arsehole as well

 

[rickthebrew]

great thread........loads of great info aleman :thumb:

 

[luckyeddie]

so a 1L starter does absolutely nothing to increase cell count

That is where I'm coming from, I'm looking at a 23ltr starter!! :wha:

Tee hee.

Here's an interesting thing - in desperation I split yesterday's 20 litre brew across 2 FV's. In the first I pitched WLP550 which I had lovingly nurtured, doubling the wort volume every couple of days, making it up to around 1040 OG each time until I had 3 litres. I split it and pitched a litre.

The other FV got a starter I had created from the yeasties at the bottom of 2 bottles of Duvel (yum) and which had been going crazy inside a demijohn for a few days. I had intended to grow this on to a couple of litres and use it in the next brew, but because I wasn't confident about the way the WLP550 was going, and the only other yeasts I had handy were a Nottingham and a Bruferm Wheat, and because I could see 20 litres of beer going '**** up' if I didn't, it was an absolute gamble but one I was prepared to take.

24 hours in, the WLP550 is only bubbling around once every 20 seconds or so, and I've just attached a heating belt to it in order to get it up to temperature. The Duvel one is almost continually blowing through the airlock, and seems to be above ambient temperature and generating its own heat.

The moral of the story, I suppose, is to ensure that you always have adequate substitute yeasts around. I have now ordered around six different dried yeasts - including a Windsor which would have been ideal for the purpose if I'd had one handy yesterday. I'll learn, I suppose.

 

[Aleman]

so a 1L starter does absolutely nothing to increase cell count

That is where I'm coming from, I'm looking at a 23ltr starter!! :wha:

Tee hee.

Here's an interesting thing - in desperation I split yesterday's 20 litre brew across 2 FV's. In the first I pitched WLP550 which I had lovingly nurtured, doubling the wort volume every couple of days, making it up to around 1040 OG each time until I had 3 litres. I split it and pitched a litre.
<snip>
24 hours in, the WLP550 is only bubbling around once every 20 seconds or so, and I've just attached a heating belt to it in order to get it up to temperature. The Duvel one is almost continually blowing through the airlock, and seems to be above ambient temperature and generating its own heat.

The Saison Yeast (WLP550) really likes warmer temperatures like 25-26C . . . and then for the last couple of days crank it up to 30C . . . .One important thing about using different varieties of yeast is finding out the conditions that they work at best . . . and providing them

 

[luckyeddie]

Great stuff, aleman - thanks.

It's tucked up in bed with a brewbelt on, and is now firing on all cylinders. I'm really looking forward to checking the difference the different yeasts make. Perhaps I'm trying to run before I can walk, this being only my third AG, but I was a chemist before I moved into IT 30 years ago, so I'm pretty quick on the uptake when it comes to GLP (good laboratory practice).

If I make mistakes, that's not a problem - just so long as I learn from them. If the beer I end up with isn't the beer I initially aimed for, that's ok, just so long as I understand what went wrong and why. If it still ends up being drinkable, so much the better.

 

[evanvine]

And this is also the reason that I come across as a big headed, arrogant, know it all, arsehole as well

Perhaps Tony, but you also come up with the goods. :thumb:

 

[Fender Precision]

Great thread gents, thanks for all the info.
Mick :thumb: