Which acid?

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

On the other hand, Gordon Strong, of the style police fame, uses 100% RO water which he acidulates with phosphoric acid before building his salts profile. Seems a funny way of doing things to me.

Quite. No point in removing minerals and then adding them back in again. And it's very difficult to add back trace elements like zinc that are very important to yeast health.

 

[-Bezza-]

Is all CRS created equal? That looks remarkably similar to the vital statistics given by Brupak and pretty close to the calcs I have been using, but just wondering if the actual CRS I'm using could have wildly different numbers.

 

[AJA]

Hmm, I assumed they were. If you have a pH meter you could check.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Is all CRS created equal? That looks remarkably similar to the vital statistics given by Brupak and pretty close to the calcs I have been using, but just wondering if the actual CRS I'm using could have wildly different numbers.

Are you using the Malt Miller stuff, or from some other source?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Hmm, I assumed they were. If you have a pH meter you could check.

Not really, because it's a blend of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids. Checking the pH would not tell you the ratio.

 

[AJA]

Not really, because it's a blend of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids. Checking the pH would not tell you the ratio.

Agreed, but if the overall concentration matched I'd have more confidence in relying on the brupaks specification.

 

[DocAnna]

An interesting bit of research write up here on taste thresholds. Unfortunately the number of scoring panelists was too low to power a statistical analysis, my take on the charts was that there was no consistent detection of lactic acid even at surprisingly high levels of use:
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.p...: Science and Practice",threshold of 400 mg/l.

However a wee bit of an academic search found this which gives a more authoratative take on taste thresholds which are then mapped to mathematical models of the molecules.

Siebert, Karl J. “Modeling the Flavor Thresholds of Organic Acids in Beer as a Function of Their Molecular Properties.” Food quality and preference 10.2 (1999): 129–137. Web.

A taste threshold of 400mg/litre seems to be fairly consistent for the data shown, which for a 20 litre batch would be 8g of pure lactic acid. Lactic acid has a density of 1.209g/ml so for a standard 80% solution, 8g of pure lactic acid is equivalent to 8.3ml of 80% solution.

That doesn't necessarily mean that more than 8.3ml in 20litres is bad, just that above that some people will likely be able to consistently identify the flavour. Food for thought anyway, and I do enjoy hunting through the university library for such things

 

[Oneflewover]

In the end I canned the idea of using phosphoric and bought some more CRS

 

[-Bezza-]

Are you using the Malt Miller stuff, or from some other source?

It's from the homebrew shop in Farnborough. I'll have a look at the label in a bit and see if it gives any further clues. Perhaps I'll rerun my salifert test whilst I'm at it, make sure it's not higher now.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

An interesting bit of research write up here on taste thresholds. Unfortunately the number of scoring panelists was too low to power a statistical analysis, my take on the charts was that there was no consistent detection of lactic acid even at surprisingly high levels of use:
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.p...: Science and Practice",threshold of 400 mg/l.

However a wee bit of an academic search found this which gives a more authoratative take on taste thresholds which are then mapped to mathematical models of the molecules.

Siebert, Karl J. “Modeling the Flavor Thresholds of Organic Acids in Beer as a Function of Their Molecular Properties.” Food quality and preference 10.2 (1999): 129–137. Web.

View attachment 64963

A taste threshold of 400mg/litre seems to be fairly consistent for the data shown, which for a 20 litre batch would be 8g of pure lactic acid. Lactic acid has a density of 1.209g/ml so for a standard 80% solution, 8g of pure lactic acid is equivalent to 8.3ml of 80% solution.

That doesn't necessarily mean that more than 8.3ml in 20litres is bad, just that above that some people will likely be able to consistently identify the flavour. Food for thought anyway, and I do enjoy hunting through the university library for such things

Thanks @DocAnna that's extremely useful. Sounds like @strange-steve 's advice to play it safe and stick below 0.3ml/l of 80% lactic (6ml in a 20L batch) isn't too far off the mark then.

To tame our extremely hard water here (350ppm as bicarbonate) I use a combination of 0.3 ml/l of 80% lactic plus 0.6 ml/l CRS... I use the lactic because (a) I've got some! and (b) it saves me using up the CRS quite so fast :-)

 

[-Bezza-]

It's from the homebrew shop in Farnborough. I'll have a look at the label in a bit and see if it gives any further clues. Perhaps I'll rerun my salifert test whilst I'm at it, make sure it's not higher now.

It didn't have any branding on it but the text of the label suggests it's brupaks, which would also agree with the image on their website. I'll just use a bit more of it on the next brew and see how that goes!

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

It didn't have any branding on it but the text of the label suggests it's brupaks, which would also agree with the image on their website. I'll just use a bit more of it on the next brew and see how that goes!

For what it’s worth, I checked the de-alk ‘power’ of my CRS by adding some (0.6ml) to a small (1L) amount of my tap water and using a Salifert KH kit to compare the results with those predicted by Bru’n Water from the water report. It actually worked out very close, which I guess makes sense because anyone using CRS needs a fairly reliable composition.

 

[Spratt]

I'm looking at switching from CRS to acid for better control. As I have a load of ingredients in stock at the moment, I was looking to get some acid on its own but can't seem to find phosphoric acid anywhere at a sensible price shipped, whereas lactic acid seems a bit easier to get (and is sold at my local HBS).

What sort of amount of lactic acid is likely to start imparting flavour? Worst case, I'd be adding about 10ml into a 20l batch based on Beersmith calcs.

My palate is probably a bit worn out but I have used 10ml lactic acid regularly in all sorts of different brews and not noticed any off flavours. The highest amount I used was 17ml, but that was in a BRUT IPA so a rather specialised case. It was a very popular brew with friends and family. All my brews are 23 litres

 

[dave_77]

On the other hand, Gordon Strong, of the style police fame, uses 100% RO water which he acidulates with phosphoric acid before building his salts profile. Seems a funny way of doing things to me.

I agree. I got a water report early on so I know roughly what Kent water is like.....it's hard. I usually dilute with 75% RO and use phosphoric from there.

 

[-Bezza-]

For what it’s worth, I checked the de-alk ‘power’ of my CRS by adding some (0.6ml) to a small (1L) amount of my tap water and using a Salifert KH kit to compare the results with those predicted by Bru’n Water from the water report. It actually worked out very close, which I guess makes sense because anyone using CRS needs a fairly reliable composition.

Great idea. Didn't think to do that!

 

[Andy E]

Found this information on another forum:

LACTIC ACID 88% : 0.1ml per litre removes 52ppm alkalinity
maximum rate of about 0.3ml per litre of water


CRS 0.5ml per litre of water will remove around 95 ppm of alkalinity.


Now you know what the alkalinity is, you need to adjust it to roughly the correct level. Sparge water should always be adjusted to a low alkalinity, about 30 ppm or less preferably, but for the mash water, the following is a very general target to aim for.

For a pale beer - 20 ppm
For an amber beer - 35 ppm
For a brown beer - 75 ppm
For a black beer - 120 ppm

Don't worry about being exact, most of the time a mash will naturally end up pretty close to where it should be but this step will give it a little push in the right direction.

To reduce alkalinity, there are various methods of doing so, however I'm only going to discuss reduction through acid addition, specifically lactic acid and CRS, because it's the simplest way and both are commonly available in most home brew stores.

Firstly lactic acid; now this can have a flavour impact on the finished beer if used in large quantities, therefore I would recommend using it only for relatively minor adjustments. I would err on the side of caution and suggest a maximum rate of about 0.3ml per litre of water, because a lactate flavour can be unpleasant in some beer styles. Lactic acid added at 0.1ml per litre will remove about 52 ppm of alkalinity.

As for CRS, it is more flavour neutral in beer and so can be used in higher quantities. Adding CRS at a rate of 0.5ml per litre of water will remove around 95 ppm of alkalinity.

When using acid to treat the water, always be sure to add it before you heat the water to strike/sparge temperature, and stir it in well to

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Found this information on another forum:

LACTIC ACID 88% : 0.1ml per litre removes 52ppm alkalinity
maximum rate of about 0.3ml per litre of water


CRS 0.5ml per litre of water will remove around 95 ppm of alkalinity.


Now you know what the alkalinity is, you need to adjust it to roughly the correct level. Sparge water should always be adjusted to a low alkalinity, about 30 ppm or less preferably, but for the mash water, the following is a very general target to aim for.

For a pale beer - 20 ppm
For an amber beer - 35 ppm
For a brown beer - 75 ppm
For a black beer - 120 ppm

Don't worry about being exact, most of the time a mash will naturally end up pretty close to where it should be but this step will give it a little push in the right direction.

To reduce alkalinity, there are various methods of doing so, however I'm only going to discuss reduction through acid addition, specifically lactic acid and CRS, because it's the simplest way and both are commonly available in most home brew stores.

Firstly lactic acid; now this can have a flavour impact on the finished beer if used in large quantities, therefore I would recommend using it only for relatively minor adjustments. I would err on the side of caution and suggest a maximum rate of about 0.3ml per litre of water, because a lactate flavour can be unpleasant in some beer styles. Lactic acid added at 0.1ml per litre will remove about 52 ppm of alkalinity.

As for CRS, it is more flavour neutral in beer and so can be used in higher quantities. Adding CRS at a rate of 0.5ml per litre of water will remove around 95 ppm of alkalinity.

When using acid to treat the water, always be sure to add it before you heat the water to strike/sparge temperature, and stir it in well to

No need to go elsewhere - just have a read of @strange-steve's Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1) and the excellent further articles.

From the first one:

(...) Now you know what the alkalinity is, you need to adjust it to roughly the correct level. Sparge water should always be adjusted to a low alkalinity, about 30 ppm or less preferably, but for the mash water, the following is a very general target to aim for [see note 5 and exception 1]:​

​

For a pale beer - 20 ppm​

For an amber beer - 35 ppm​

For a brown beer - 75 ppm​

For a black beer - 120 ppm​

​

Don't worry about being exact, most of the time a mash will naturally end up pretty close to where it should be but this step will give it a little push in the right direction.​

​

To reduce alkalinity, there are various methods of doing so, however I'm only going to discuss reduction through acid addition, specifically lactic acid and CRS, because it's the simplest way and both are commonly available in most home brew stores.​

​

Firstly lactic acid; now this can have a flavour impact on the finished beer if used in large quantities, therefore I would recommend using it only for relatively minor adjustments. I would err on the side of caution and suggest a maximum rate of about 0.3ml per litre of water, because a lactate flavour can be unpleasant in some beer styles. Lactic acid added at 0.1ml per litre will remove about 52 ppm of alkalinity.​

​

As for CRS, it is more flavour neutral in beer and so can be used in higher quantities. Adding CRS at a rate of 0.5ml per litre of water will remove around 95 ppm of alkalinity.​

​

When using acid to treat the water, always be sure to add it before you heat the water to strike/sparge temperature, and stir it in well to release CO2.​

 

[Neale]

I found this video very interesting, the guy talking is from Murphy and sons, the makers of CRS/AMS, the link takes you directly to the bit about CRS but the whole video is worth a watch and there's also a part 1 video as well.



I've been using CRS for years, my HCO3 is up at 246ppm so CRS was a must for me. I use Brewfather for calculating my water profile and pretty much start with CRS to reduce the alkalinity as much as possible, then add other salts, lactic etc if required. I then test pH while mashing and adjust with Lactic acid if required. Its usually pretty close though so I don't usually need much.

 

[crescent city Mike]

Quite. No point in removing minerals and then adding them back in again. And it's very difficult to add back trace elements like zinc that are very important to yeast health.

It all depends on the water content you start with. If you read what Gordon Strong has written, his source water is terrible. I'm sure he's worked on this for years before going to square one with R/O water.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Would it be safe to assume that for most of us, especially if using UK levels of mineral additions in the mash, coming above the taste threshold of lactic acid is not realistically any concern?