What The Hell Are The Police Doing

[Thumper]

If you were at home a with wife and children in bed and an armed burglar broke into your house, you may well not be thinking straight enough during a struggle to decide what is proportionate force. Your only thought would probably be saving your own life and that of your family, even if it involved terminating the threat permanently.

The burglar had a choice in this situation, you didn't.

Allowances are very clearly made within UK law for the fact that it is an adrenalin-charged situation in which you may not be thinking entirely rationally. As they absolutely should be.

However, there is also an expectation that people should at least be attempting to avoid violence. This means that once the intruder is no longer a threat, you stop, because it's no longer necessary to be violent. So stabbing someone who is running away, or already on the floor with a stab wound and not getting up any time soon, is a big no-no.

This seems fair and pretty well-balanced, to me.

 

[Clint]

A few well placed kicks would be OK though....or a spectacular combination of head butts and kidney punches....

 

[marshbrewer]

The problem is - how do you know he isn't running away to get his mates outside? Or that axe from his car? In some remote locations, that intruder is basically only 'not a threat' once he is unconscious.

 

[Lord Lucan]

Didn't Oscar think he had a burglar too?

Sent from my Kitchen Tap Room

 

[IainM]

A 'kid' who was 16, with two of his thieving scum mates, a 'kid' who had several convictions for violent offences, including assaulting the police, who could well have gone outside for help, to get more of his scum mates, do god knows what; not some rosy cheeked angel who was innocently walking along, going 'tra la la la la' when some horrid, evil country dweller sprung his trap shouting 'bwa ha ha ha ha ha'.

Those of us who live in very rural locations are unlikely to see any help from the police within an hour (at best - if at all). If Martin hadn't shot those two guys in his house, what do you think they, and their mate waiting outside, would have done? Invited him outside for a gypsy sing song?

There are places in the world that have 'no retreat' type laws in place where, basically, burglars have little, if any, rights. Incidences of people 'torturing' helpless burglars are so low as to be almost non existent. 'Hot' (i.e. occupier present) burglaries in those territories are much reduced, meaning more families remain safe.

I know which I would prefer.

Finally, Martin was convicted of manslaughter and given 3 years, not convicted of 'executing' Baras.

Sure, the kid was a little s***, as were the other two. I have little sympathy for them, and I completely understand that Tony felt aggrieved by the police not doing anything about previous burglaries, and him fearing for his life. Protecting himself and his property was his right. Nevertheless, he had made previous comments about wanting to shoot gypsies and burglars. This wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing that he hadn't given much thought to... and sorry, if you are a burglar running away from an angry guy with a shotgun, you aren't going to get your mates and come back.

 

[marshbrewer]

Nevertheless, he had made previous comments about wanting to shoot gypsies and burglars.

I'm sure that, after a few ales in my local, I've said such things as 'if anyone ever broke into my house when the kids were in, I'd kill them'. Does that mean if someone breaks in tonight, and there is some kind of altercation and they die, I should be done for murder?

and sorry, if you are a burglar running away from an angry guy with a shotgun, you aren't going to get your mates and come back.

You know this as fact, do you? You don't know of any situation you can think of where scumbags, when faced down, come back for a spot of revenge, armed if necessary? Because, given the remoteness of Martin's farmhouse, and the fact the police where almost certainly not going to attend, you would need to be damn near 100% sure.

I'm not having a go, Iain, I'm really not, but you sound very naive as to the risk those living in remote areas are at if scum come a calling.

 

[simon12]

I'm going to get a sign saying "burglars will be shot, survivors will be shot again"

 

[IainM]

I'm not having a go, Iain, I'm really not, but you sound very naive as to the risk those living in remote areas are at if scum come a calling.

Not at all, I don't take this personally, and I am without doubt naive about the realities of living in a remote location. In fact I quite enjoy listening to different opinions.

Burglars aren't there for confrontation. They are there to steal your stuff. Of course making comments in the pub doesn't remove your right to defend yourself. My position is that defending yourself is fine, but taking the law into your own hands isn't. He said that he would take the law into his own hands, and then he killed the guy in a way that looked like he was taking the law into his own hands, when he was running away and already half way out the building. It isn't a clear cut case. Neither of us know whether he was simply a scared man or living out a sadistic gypsy-killing fantasy. The jury made the judgement they did on the basis of the evidence presented in court, and the parole board didn't release him early because he they considered him too dangerous.

 

[LarryF]

Burglar: give me your valuables or I'll kill all of you. Me: would you like hobnobs or digestives with your tea. Yeah right, the law has always been somewhat vague on this issue of homeowners defending themselves against burglars. I have no idea what is considered "reasonable force" in a situation where an armed burglar is in my house. However, a dead burglar firmly clutching my bread knife should give me a fair bit of Lee way, certainly beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Ajhutch]

Burglar: give me your valuables or I'll kill all of you. Me: would you like hobnobs or digestives with your tea.

Funny, we got broken into once while we were on holiday when I was a kid. The burglars left two mugs, used tea bags and half a packet of biscuits on the worktop. The cheek of it!

 

[Lord Lucan]

How many of us has ever said in the pub after a mates bike or whatever has been stolen... ' if anyone tried to nick my bike I'll beat them to a pulp'...

Sent from my Kitchen Tap Room

 

[Wouter]

Most situations in which a homeowner gets convicted for violence against a burglar is this story:

1. Homeowner disables burglar.
2. Homeowner now proceeds to continue the violence while the burglar is already incapacitated.

Then the media "forgets" to add that the burglar was already incapacitated.

 

[Thumper]

A few well placed kicks would be OK though....or a spectacular combination of head butts and kidney punches....

Interestingly, headbutting is always illegal, even in self defence situations. Or so my tae kwon do instructor told me.

 

[Ken L]

That kid could've turned his life around and execution by shotgun was not the right punishment for the crime.

Tony Martin isn't a poster boy for reasonable home defence but let's be sensible here; Fred Barras (The dead boy) was a traveller who had been in trouble with the police from age 12.
At 16, Barras had racked up 29 offences, been in court five times and had a spell inside a youth offenders' institution.
His crimes included common assault, handling stolen goods, assaulting a constable, theft, dangerous driving and burglary.
He was never going to "turn his life around".

 

[GerritT]

Criminals NEVER take into account that they make mistakes. Every burglary goes undetected, every car theft goes smoothly, every robbery works out well. In their plans.

That's why harsh punishments don't prevent a lot. Who cares about punishment when you're not getting caught anyway?

 

[GerritT]

Interestingly, headbutting is always illegal, even in self defence situations. Or so my tae kwon do instructor told me.

Brutal force directed at head: yeah, it's not comparable to a slap on the cheek.

 

[Gunge]

If you are holding a shotgun at them and they are running away, how much harm do you think they could do to you?

None - if you eliminate all possibilty of them returning for another go. Bye-bye scumballs, rot in hell.

 

[Thumper]

The problem is - how do you know he isn't running away to get his mates outside? Or that axe from his car? In some remote locations, that intruder is basically only 'not a threat' once he is unconscious.

Simple probability. Burglars come to burgle things of value, not to hurt people or be hurt. They tend to run away when threatened, if they have an escape route. They won't hurt you unless they themselves feel cornered.

My dad is an ex cop, and the advice he gave me was: make a lot of noise, let them know you're in. Do not surprise them. Get to the top of the stairs, or if you can't do that to a room at the opposite end of the house to their entry point. Do not get between them and the exit. Call the police, and tell the burglar the cops are on their way. By that point, they've almost certainly left again.

A weapon just escalates the situation. If you threaten a person, they will react in the same way most people do when threatened: violently.

 

[Thumper]

Brutal force directed at head: yeah, it's not comparable to a slap on the cheek.

Exactly. The average human head weighs almost a stone by itself. As a result, the neck muscles are some of the strongest for their size in your body. So you have a stone of thick bone propelled by very strong muscles, aimed almost by necessity at the head or face. A headbutt can do an awful lot of damage.

 

[marshbrewer]

Simple probability. Burglars come to burgle things of value, not to hurt people or be hurt. They tend to run away when threatened. They wont hurt you unless they themselves feel threatened.

My dad is an ex cop, and the advice he gave me was: make a lot of noise, let them know you're in. Do not surprise them. Get to the top of the stairs, or if you can't do that to a room at the opposite end of the house to their entry point. Call the police, and tell the burglar the cops are on their way. By that point, they've almost certainly left again.

A weapon just escalates the situation. If you threaten a person, they will react in the same way most people do when threatened: violently.

That may be good advice in an urban setting where the plod are likely to turn up in an hour or so, but out in the sticks? Doesn't work like that, and the criminals know it.