Water when using liquid malt extract

[Miro]

Hi all,

Can I use ONLY distilled water for 23L batch when using liquid malt extract, and will I get desired 5.2-5.6 PH of the wort, or I still need to adjust PH to get 5.2PH?

Also, I'm planning to add one sachet (4g) of yeast nutrient.

Thanks for all replies.

 

[Miro]

I forgot to add, my tap water is between 7.8-8.2 PH 3 phase chlorinated and contains fluoride.

 

[Druncan]

Campden tablet will sort Chlorine or leave out overnight or pre-boil? Add a Tiny bit of citric to drop PH? add very slowly!!!!

 

[Jan.]

This is a good question but also depends on the water that was used for the mash when the manufacturer was making the extract, the type of beer you are making and the speciality grains you are adding. The easiest and best way to do this is to experiment and measure each step of the way (I'm sorry, I know a fancy chart or calculation table is more elegant and makes for a better answer but this is the best way). Make sure you take a PH reading 10 minutes after adding the water and additional grains (if using) and give it at least another 10 after you have add acid/carbonate.

Also, wanted to highlight Druncan's advice, Campden tablets/powder are REALLY useful for loads of things, if you don't have any, get some. Campden (potassium or sodium metabisulfite) can be used to sterilize your equipment, will stabilize musts or sterilize fruit additions to your beer. It kills bacteria, eliminates Chlorine and Chloramine in your water (you need so little to get rid of Chlorine that even a small pack will last AGES). So versatile, always have some at hand (no I am not taking commission on any sales, just a big fan).

 

[Miro]

Thank you. So, I'm assuming that distilled water is perfectly fine. I just want to make an experiment because last batch turned out a little sweet, and I had some issues with fermentation. And because I did not take any PH readings, I thought that it might be water. Fermentation stopped after 2 days and needed to pitch more yeast and my FG was a bit 3–4 points over than I expected.

Well. On LME can it says that it has all the nutrients. So I'm just wondering if the LME was pre-made for 5.2 PH and I add only neutral (distilled) water I should potentially get desired 5.2-5.6 PH without adding any salts or acid.

 

[Jan.]

Thank you. So, I'm assuming that distilled water is perfectly fine. I just want to make an experiment because last batch turned out a little sweet, and I had some issues with fermentation. And because I did not take any PH readings, I thought that it might be water. Fermentation stopped after 2 days and needed to pitch more yeast and my FG was a bit 3–4 points over than I expected.

Well. On LME can it says that it has all the nutrients. So I'm just wondering if the LME was pre-made for 5.2 PH and I add only neutral (distilled) water I should potentially get desired 5.2-5.6 PH without adding any salts or acid.

I am NOT an expert in this (I thought I would at least qualify my answer) however, the DME or LME process is that the manufacturers will do the mash for you, therefore they would need to make sure that the enzymes have the correct PH and minerals for them (the enzymes) to do the job properly. They then would evaporate the additional water to concentrate it (under a vacuum) and this would release the water but not the minerals. It follows that this concentrates the mineral content in the LME. Therefore distilled water would be fine to use in general. You should get the right PH with distilled water with no problems (based on whatever the manufaturer's targets are, eg. if their process required a lower PH then distilled water would also get you a lower PH but it would always be within the correct mashing parametres).

When you say fermentation stopped, do you know this because you took gravity readings or because the airlock stopped bubbling? Don't trust airlocks.

3 or 4 points is no biggie. I bet you wouldn't be able to tell in a side by side test, don't stress the little stuff, the most important thing is to enjoy the process!

 

[NicF]

Personally I wouldn't use distilled or RO water, when using extract, the 5.2-5.6 pH really is just the sweet spot for the enzymes in the mash when converting the starches into sugars and that is all done for you.

Trace elements in tap water may well aid yeast health during fermentation and you'll still want to build a profile to maintain an appropriate Chloride:Sulphate ratio, and calcium levels for yeast growth.

When looking at the pH that is simply a measure of what the water is at a point, the alkalinity of the water is probably more important as that is a measure of the water's ability to resist changes in the pH. i.e. if your pH is high then then the acids from the grain and also fermentation won't change the pH much but it if its low the effects will be more pronounced.

For most people, unless your water is either extremely hard or extremely soft a campden tablet, as has already been mentioned, is all you need to do when brewing with extract.

 

[Jan.]

Personally I wouldn't use distilled or RO water, when using extract, the 5.2-5.6 pH really is just the sweet spot for the enzymes in the mash when converting the starches into sugars and that is all done for you.

Trace elements in tap water may well aid yeast health during fermentation and you'll still want to build a profile to maintain an appropriate Chloride:Sulphate ratio, and calcium levels for yeast growth.

When looking at the pH that is simply a measure of what the water is at a point, the alkalinity of the water is probably more important as that is a measure of the water's ability to resist changes in the pH. i.e. if your pH is high then then the acids from the grain and also fermentation won't change the pH much but it if its low the effects will be more pronounced.

For most people, unless your water is either extremely hard or extremely soft a campden tablet, as has already been mentioned, is all you need to do when brewing with extract.

I do agree with all your comments, but I still think using RO or distilled won't harm and all the necessary salts for fermentation will be in the LME already. Using tap water could add additional quantities of something that may be detrimental. There really is no way of knowing if tap water or distilled would work better for the beer profile that is being made without sending a sample for analysis, though. It really depends on what was done by the manufacturer of LME.

The only other point is that the PH from the mash is very important for the mash itself, but don't forget that the PH will follow through to the boil and then to the fermentation so will have an effect on each stage and then the final beer.

 

[Miro]

When you say fermentation stopped, do you know this because you took gravity readings or because the airlock stopped bubbling? Don't trust airlocks.

Yes, I took gravity reading. So I pitched more yeast, and it dropped FG from 1.016 to 1.008 and that was it. I was Expecting 1.005 or 1.004. My airlock did not bubble at all since start to finish.

 

[Jan.]

Actually, that sounds great. How did it taste? I wouldn't actually expect it to get down that low (1.006) as the fermentability is locked in (to some extent) by the manufacturer. You did well to get it that low, it must have been a hungry yeast! (of course, I might be well off as I don't know exactly what you were brewing).
Burn the airlock, smash it with a hammer. I have been told off before about my radical opinions about airlocks but I feel they only cause trouble. Well done for ignoring it.

 

[Miro]

I just bottled it today, so it needs to rest. It was Golden pale Pilsener Lager. On can, it was saying that FG 1.005. But actually I used Californian Lager yeast M54 as I can't ferment on lower temp at the moment. I would say that fermentation could stop due to not enough oxygen, but before I pitched I stir it well. So next time I try Wort aerator pump to get more oxygen in. Temp was quite steady 20-22 degrees Celsius although M54 yeast should be OK with that, but ideal should be 18 to 20 °C. I'll give it a try with distilled water and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Jan.]

Yeast uses the oxygen at the initial stage of fermentation and actually doesn't use it when it converts the sugar into alcohol (and the other stuff) so it won't have stalled through lack of oxygen. The most common causes are, a drop in temperature (maybe at night). Yeast health (when did you buy the yeast?) under pitching (how much beer did you make? What was the OG?) or nutrients (if this was the cause then it's exactly what NicF said earlier).

I've not used this yeast before (although I love Mangrove Jack's in general). Weird that it's a larger yeast with instructions to ferment at a higher temp (although in general all yeast prefer this type of temperature, we ferment colder to get a cleaner taste, so it seems counterintuitive, but who am I to critisize, I haven't even used this one before!)

I am presuming that your starting gravity was around 1.050. The MJ yeast info states that the attenuation is High (77 - 82%) so from 1.050 you could expect a FG of 1.011 to 1.006. Based on that, your final FG of 1.008 is bang on! Congrats.

 

[Miro]

Yeast uses the oxygen at the initial stage of fermentation and actually doesn't use it when it converts the sugar into alcohol (and the other stuff) so it won't have stalled through lack of oxygen. The most common causes are, a drop in temperature (maybe at night). Yeast health (when did you buy the yeast?) under pitching (how much beer did you make? What was the OG?) or nutrients (if this was the cause then it's exactly what NicF said earlier).

I've not used this yeast before (although I love Mangrove Jack's in general). Weird that it's a larger yeast with instructions to ferment at a higher temp (although in general all yeast prefer this type of temperature, we ferment colder to get a cleaner taste, so it seems counterintuitive, but who am I to critisize, I haven't even used this one before!)

I am presuming that your starting gravity was around 1.050. The MJ yeast info states that the attenuation is High (77 - 82%) so from 1.050 you could expect a FG of 1.011 to 1.006. Based on that, your final FG of 1.008 is bang on! Congrats.

Well…the batch was 23L and OG 1.040. I bought the yeast on brew day and used only tap water. But the weird thing is that exactly the same thing happened with my previous batch. Exactly the same. Because I have tap water pH between 7.8-8.4 based on the report, I assume that it should have enough nutrients. I also read that Pilsner lager does not require that much nutrition rich water, as they usually use soft water instead. Also, there wasn't a drop in temperature.
I'm happy with my FG, but honestly I was expecting a bit better. (2-3 points).

Lastly, what I noticed on my last gravity reading when I took ph reading, it was quite low. The finished beer should be somewhere between 4.2 - 4.6 ph well...this one was quite low at 3.65 ph.

 

[Sandimas]

Can you provide your recipe as it sounds like you are doing an Extract brew: liquid malt extract and hops? If so, you don't need to worry about pH: the 5.2-5.6 is to get the best out of the Mash. If you're not doing an All Grain brew with a mash it's not an issue.

 

[Miro]

Can you provide your recipe as it sounds like you are doing an Extract brew: liquid malt extract and hops? If so, you don't need to worry about pH: the 5.2-5.6 is to get the best out of the Mash. If you're not doing an All Grain brew with a mash it's not an issue.

Yes I'm brewing from liquid malt extract and hops.

 

[Jan.]

Well…the batch was 23L and OG 1.040. I bought the yeast on brew day and used only tap water. But the weird thing is that exactly the same thing happened with my previous batch. Exactly the same. Because I have tap water pH between 7.8-8.4 based on the report, I assume that it should have enough nutrients. I also read that Pilsner lager does not require that much nutrition rich water, as they usually use soft water instead. Also, there wasn't a drop in temperature.
I'm happy with my FG, but honestly I was expecting a bit better. (2-3 points).

Lastly, what I noticed on my last gravity reading when I took ph reading, it was quite low. The finished beer should be somewhere between 4.2 - 4.6 ph well...this one was quite low at 3.65 ph.

Nah, don't worry, I actually prefer a bit more body in my beers, you really wouldn't have noticed the difference anyway and the extra attenuation wouldn't necessarily mean it was a good thing for the beer. Concentrate on fermentation and taste rather than the FG.

I don't want to overwhelm you with information as the last thing I want to do is put you off but measuring the tap water PH doesn't tell you anything. It won't tell you the salt profile of the water and it doesn't really have anything to do with the mash PH even when you do an all grain batch. There is a buffering capacity that you can't calculate with the PH metre alone. Once you mix the grain or extract with the water you may need more or less acid (or alkali) to get to your target based on the buffering capacity of the wort (i'm not a scientist so if I have explained it wrong I apologise). Either way, measuring tap water PH doesn't give you much information.

The PH reading on the final beer does seem a little low though. Does it taste ok? How long between the end of the boil, cooling and pitching? did it take a while to start fermenting?

 

[Druncan]

Just wondering how you added the hops? LME is pre-boiled so just needs heating to 75*C for sanitisation. I add my T90 hops to pre-boiled and cooled water and cold soak (sometimes overnight) then add to a bit of the (cooled wort) to get a rough sense of the bitterness/flavour and add, spraying my ever-present spray bottle of StarSan.
I add very little hops to a lager. I mainly rely on the malt and yeast. But I am just learning :tinhat:

 

[Miro]

Nah, don't worry, I actually prefer a bit more body in my beers, you really wouldn't have noticed the difference anyway and the extra attenuation wouldn't necessarily mean it was a good thing for the beer. Concentrate on fermentation and taste rather than the FG.

I don't want to overwhelm you with information as the last thing I want to do is put you off but measuring the tap water PH doesn't tell you anything. It won't tell you the salt profile of the water and it doesn't really have anything to do with the mash PH even when you do an all grain batch. There is a buffering capacity that you can't calculate with the PH metre alone. Once you mix the grain or extract with the water you may need more or less acid (or alkali) to get to your target based on the buffering capacity of the wort (i'm not a scientist so if I have explained it wrong I apologise). Either way, measuring tap water PH doesn't give you much information.

The PH reading on the final beer does seem a little low though. Does it taste ok? How long between the end of the boil, cooling and pitching? did it take a while to start fermenting?

I did not boil LME. I heated it up to 85 °C. Additional hops I boiled water separately and added hops. Cooling I used cold bath in the sink which was roughly 30 min., pour it into fermenter vessel, added tap water, good stir and then pitched the yeast. Because the airlock did not bubble at all, but air was coming out from the airlock, so I could smell it, I can't say how quickly fermentation started. But I assume that it started early because after 2 days fermentation there was no smell, so I took a reading 2 x (2 days) and it stuck on 1.016.

The taste was a little weird, but I guess it was because it was from the fermenter and still not conditioned.

 

[Miro]

Just wondering how you added the hops? LME is pre-boiled so just needs heating to 75*C for sanitisation. I add my T90 hops to pre-boiled and cooled water and cold soak (sometimes overnight) then add to a bit of the (cooled wort) to get a rough sense of the bitterness/flavour and add, spraying my ever-present spray bottle of StarSan.
I add very little hops to a lager. I mainly rely on the malt and yeast. But I am just learning :tinhat:

I heated it up to 85. Separately, I boiled water and added hops for 15 min. After it cooled down a bit, I added it to the LME.

 

[Miro]

Actually, here are some reports about the water quality.

and here: