Water Softeners - any idea?

[dlowe1992]

Right, I'm two weeks into our new house and the better weather has me itching to brew while sorting out the garden / shed this weekend.

The new place has one of these installed..
https://www.calmagltd.com/calsoft-mini-water-softener/

Having got some info out of Severn Trent on our supply I can see why they got it. I know we're in a hard water area but that's impressive!
Ca 104 Mg 10 Ch 44 SO4 40 Bicarbonate 362 NA 16

Sorting that out with AMS would take a hell of a lot of it, so I'm wondering about using a mix of the tap water and softened water to get me where I want prior to any additions. But I've no idea what these things do to other salt levels in the water. I'm presuming they work by predominantly stripping out the carbonates, but do they take other stuff with it?
I've emailed into the manufacturer to try and find out what these softeners do to the water exactly in terms of salts etc. Anyone any experience with one of these or something similar and exactly how they work?

Any info greatly received at the minute!
Ta,
Dan

 

[Appleton Brews]

I would dilute it 50/50 with Ashbeck water from Tesco which has Alkalinity of 25 which would lower yours to about 200. I would then further reduce that with AMS.

 

[JockyBrewer]

That water softener is an ion exchange unit. It replaces calcium and magnesium with sodium.
You shouldn’t brew with water from it.

Normally when you have a unit like this there’s a tap that bypasses it for drinking water.

Most of London and the South East has water like yours, and either treats it with AMS/CRS or uses some/all RO water.

RO systems are cheap, or you can get RO from a ‘Spotless’ water station or aquarium shops.

 

[dlowe1992]

Yeah I've just had a reply from the manufacturers saying much the same thing. Hadn't realised it stripped out the calcium and magneisum.
Pretty much the polar opposite of what I want it to do. Never mind! At least it'll be good water for cleaning.

I've been looking at Spotless as I'm trying to avoid buying more 'gear' whilst also a little reluctant to keep buying Ashbeck - nearest Tesco a fair way away!

 

[RichardM]

Yeah I've just had a reply from the manufacturers saying much the same thing. Hadn't realised it stripped out the calcium and magneisum.
Pretty much the polar opposite of what I want it to do. Never mind! At least it'll be good water for cleaning.

I've been looking at Spotless as I'm trying to avoid buying more 'gear' whilst also a little reluctant to keep buying Ashbeck - nearest Tesco a fair way away!

The only thing you need to buy to use Spotless is a container to transport the water in. Plastic jerry cans don't cost much.

 

[MashBag]

Sorting that out with AMS would take a hell of a lot of it,

That is in the 1ml/1litre territory. Not far off where I am.

What is your concern? Cost or impact?

 

[dlowe1992]

The only thing you need to buy to use Spotless is a container to transport the water in. Plastic jerry cans don't cost much

Oh yeah that's fine. I meant I was trying to avoid buying more gear such as an RO system.

That is in the 1ml/1litre territory. Not far off where I am.

What is your concern? Cost or impact?

Playing around on Brewfather, I was aiming for a water profile with about 50 HC03 and it was reckoning on 44ml AMS to 30 odd litres of liquor. I've done 30ml in 30 litres before as I'm used to hard water at the old place. Sure I read somewhere it starts to become an issue at much higher dosages than this... Or maybe I need to stop being so precious about water profiles!

*edit* To be clear, concern is 100% impact not cost..

 

[MashBag]

Full volume OK that's about right.

Recall 1.84 ml per litre is max. Math says that's a 337 reduction.
So you are right on the edge.

But I would test what's actually coming out of the tap first.
I have noticed what they say and what happens, can vary.. Probably pipe length/age/type plays a part.

 

[millerdw]

Right, I'm two weeks into our new house and the better weather has me itching to brew while sorting out the garden / shed this weekend.

The new place has one of these installed..
https://www.calmagltd.com/calsoft-mini-water-softener/

Having got some info out of Severn Trent on our supply I can see why they got it. I know we're in a hard water area but that's impressive!
Ca 104 Mg 10 Ch 44 SO4 40 Bicarbonate 362 NA 16

Sorting that out with AMS would take a hell of a lot of it, so I'm wondering about using a mix of the tap water and softened water to get me where I want prior to any additions. But I've no idea what these things do to other salt levels in the water. I'm presuming they work by predominantly stripping out the carbonates, but do they take other stuff with it?
I've emailed into the manufacturer to try and find out what these softeners do to the water exactly in terms of salts etc. Anyone any experience with one of these or something similar and exactly how they work?

Any info greatly received at the minute!
Ta,
Dan

I live in Cambridgeshire, which has some of the hardest water in the UK, so have thought about this a bit...

Softeners work by replacing one type 9f ion with another iirc, so you don't actually end up with purer water, only 'softer' water. The only practical ways I could see to reduce the numbers I was seeing was to dilute with de-ionised water, or to cause salts to sediment by boiling (like scale on your kitchen kettle).

I worked out (somewhere) that if I pre-boiled 4/5 of the water in my batch I'd get down to reasonable water profile *and* my water would start at like 60C in my 20L 'mash tun', so I wouldn't waste much energy either.

 

[dlowe1992]

But I would test what's actually coming out of the tap first.

I’m definitely doing that. I’ve got the Salifert kits for calcium and carbonates so will definitely be checking before making any decisions…

worked out (somewhere) that if I pre-boiled 4/5 of the water in my batch I'd get down to reasonable water profile *and* my water would start at like 60C in my 20L 'mash tun', so I wouldn't waste much energy either.

I’ve thought about the boiling route in the past. The wasted energy bothered me but I hadn’t considered doing it just prior to mashing. That’s a neat way to get to strike temp.

But…. I thought you had to let the water cool for the crap to settle out?

 

[LeeH]

I have BWT Pearl, works well. If I was doing it again I’d buy a twin tank.

Don’t use it for brewing though!

 

[millerdw]

I’m definitely doing that. I’ve got the Salifert kits for calcium and carbonates so will definitely be checking before making any decisions…



I’ve thought about the boiling route in the past. The wasted energy bothered me but I hadn’t considered doing it just prior to mashing. That’s a neat way to get to strike temp.

But…. I thought you had to let the water cool for the crap to settle out?

Interesting point... I haven't run a profile on the output, but I boil the water, decant to a jug, leave it for a minute between each step and I can see a reasonable amount of sediment in the bottom.

Either way, if its no longer in solution, just suspended, does that still affect the mash in the same way? I'm guessing not, but I'm not exactly a chemist

 

[JockyBrewer]

Another option is to treat the water with slaked lime: https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime

Similar to boiling you should really test the water after treatment to figure out what you’re now dealing with.

 

[Tony623]

I also live in a hard water area and have tried various ideas, Ashbeck/ 50/50 etc. The best one I have found is using spotless water. If you have one near enough to you, give it a try. I also like the fact that non of my kit gets any limescale build up now.

 

[LeeH]

RO is definitely the way forward in a hard water area. I normally have around a 50/50 mix to achieve the profile I normally use with only minimal additions like a few grams of gypsum.

Light hoppy beers are definitely better than my old Murphys CRS DWB system, but that was a huge improvement over just filtering the town water.

 

[MashBag]

I am thinking about filtering again before any treatment.

 

[dlowe1992]

Turns out there’s a Spotless place about five miles from me in Telford. Think I’m going to have a play using this.

Presume it will be fairly similar to RO water as a Brewfather profile?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Oh yeah that's fine. I meant I was trying to avoid buying more gear such as an RO system.

Yep I think RO systems are not a great solution. They're affordable to buy I guess, but require ongoing filters that is just another recurring cost, but also they are hugely inefficient producing 3 - 4 litres of 'waste' water for every litre of RO water...and they're very slow and would take many hours to produce any significant volume of RO water, so yet another preparation task you need to remember to do before a brewery and takes any possibility of spontaneity away.

Yes you can use the waste water on the garden or washing cars and washing brew kit, but we live in the UK...hardly a lack of an abundant supply of free water falling from the skies for all of those uses and more, so why use expensive waste water from an RO system...I mean how much garden watering and car washing do you actually do?
Spotless is great if you have one nearby and a far better option than buying an RO filter. Failing that dilution with shop bought spring water.

 

[Tony623]

Turns out there’s a Spotless place about five miles from me in Telford. Think I’m going to have a play using this.

Presume it will be fairly similar to RO water as a Brewfather profile?

It’s well worth a try, just in case you havnt already got one, if you use this referral code,
spotless28377
you will get £10 of free water. (Full disclosure, I would also obtain a referral credit) give it a go, I am sure you will not be disappointed.
I have my spotless water profile all set at 0 and it works very well for me.
Let us know how you get on with it.

 

[Davegase]

Right, I'm two weeks into our new house and the better weather has me itching to brew while sorting out the garden / shed this weekend.

The new place has one of these installed..
https://www.calmagltd.com/calsoft-mini-water-softener/

Having got some info out of Severn Trent on our supply I can see why they got it. I know we're in a hard water area but that's impressive!
Ca 104 Mg 10 Ch 44 SO4 40 Bicarbonate 362 NA 16

Sorting that out with AMS would take a hell of a lot of it, so I'm wondering about using a mix of the tap water and softened water to get me where I want prior to any additions. But I've no idea what these things do to other salt levels in the water. I'm presuming they work by predominantly stripping out the carbonates, but do they take other stuff with it?
I've emailed into the manufacturer to try and find out what these softeners do to the water exactly in terms of salts etc. Anyone any experience with one of these or something similar and exactly how they work?

Any info greatly received at the minute!
Ta,
Dan

I wouldn't use water from a softener.

There is a spotless water outlet at:
Telford – TF3 3BJ

Edit, I've just seen that you've already found spotless water , I would definitely go with that.