water additions

[MashBag]

....but must of England uses Chloramine, not Chlorine. The former is more difficult to remove.

England is divided into different water companies which will make their own decisions as to what they use.

Does it say which on the water report?

 

[Sadfield]

England is divided into different water companies which will make their own decisions as to what they use.

Indeed, so one shouldn't automatically assume that it's chlorine that will easily off gas. Most choose the stability, lack of taste and odour of chloramine.

 

[peebee]

Near the end of that off-site (American) thread I posted above, there's a bit by "Troy Walker". Provides an explanation of why we got stuck with "as CaCO3" units. A bit of "social engineering" not "chemical engineering" like might be expected for something so screwy.

He also repeats that nearly all "Alkalinity" (all?) in mains water is due to bicarbonate. @dad_of_jon: Just keep tabs on your "bicarbonate" and you can skip over all the "Alkalinity" baloney like you can the "hardness". I'll try to dig up some stuff explaining why you're not to be bothered with insoluble "chalk" and "carbonates" ... just bicarbonate will do.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Does it say which on the water report?

I did check mine, and it didn't say. But as I said, it doesn't present a problem

 

[peebee]

... I'll try to dig up some stuff explaining why you're not to be bothered with insoluble "chalk" and "carbonates" ... just bicarbonate will do.

Here's one of those "explanatory graphs":

Which form of carbon will dominate? - off-site link

Just get an idea of what the graph is telling you, it saves a lot of un-necessary wasted time trying to dissolve chalk.

Also explains that "Alkalinity [pH 4.5] (mg/l as CaCO3)" bit in the report posted in the OP (a titration endpoint) if you really want to know the reason.

 

[peebee]

One last thing! Because I'm answering @dad_of_jon's query: Not bothering yourself with all the "Hardness" and "Alkalinity" babble is particularly good for us with our softer water. I don't try (yet) to dictate to the 90%, or 95%, of the UK population (South and East of England roughly) that suffer anxieties over their hard water supplies.

By the same token: Do be careful when listening to advise from the Hard-water-angst-driven rabble. You DO NOT need bottled water, RO water, blah, blah, blah ... they don't understand what is coming out of your tap!

And we're not "blessed" with "Chloramine" either, but a scrap of metabisulphite does no harm (not an entire Campden tablet) and saves any temptation to boil your brewing water before use and waste all that valuable energy.

 

[MashBag]

By the same token: Do be careful when listening to advise from the Hard-water-angst-driven rabble. You DO NOT need bottled water, RO water, blah, blah, blah ... they don't understand what is coming out of your tap!

And we're not "blessed" with "Chloramine" either, but a scrap of metabisulphite does no harm (not an entire Campden tablet) and saves any temptation to boil your brewing water before use and waste all that valuable energy.

Well said that man!

Any opinions on sanitising funnels

 

[Tom Archer.]

My local water is horribly hard and low on sulphate, so I recently hatched a 'cunning plan' to make a water correction licquor that would require 1mL to be added to 1 litre of tap water.

The concoction was a mix of lactic acid, sulphuric acid (which I happened to have, purchased two decades ago for an entirely different purpose) and magnesium sulphate.

In the company of the acids however, the MgSO4, which is usually super soluble; largely refused to dissolve, forcing me to bulk up with distilled water to make a correcting fluid to be administered at 2mL/L instead, but even then the sulphate dissolved very slowly.

- Now to put it to the test..

 

[MashBag]

That's a classic case for AMS alkalinity correction & DWB to top up the minerals.

 

[Birdsnestbrewery]

That's a classic case for AMS alkalinity correction & DWB to top up the minerals.

That's what I do. Horribly hard water combined with insufficient chemistry knowledge so I use the AMS and DWB data sheets from Murphy's and other variations.
Works so far, beer tastes good.

 

[peebee]

Blimey. All the "anti-Bru'n-Water" stuff I've listened to means I've never considered it as a useful information source. Now I'm finding all sorts of useful stuff there ... and backup for what I often preach. Here's one, an alternative to that earlier carbonate/bicarbonate link I posted above:

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/carbonate-and-bicarbonate
Other useful articles about there too (but a lot of un-necessarily complex ones as well, but he's backing up his product so I think I should let him off that! ).

Most useful because I suspect people on this forum will often believe things from Martin Brungard but will give me the credibility of something that crawled from under a rock (if I'm lucky).

... Any opinions on sanitising funnels

Not quite sure what you mean, but my imagination comes up with some unsavoury ideas!!! (Most ideas involve ****!).

 

[dad_of_jon]

An update: I've brewed with verdant yeast a few times
1) chase spring bottled water no treatment
2) tap water with gypsum & 1/2 campden tab
3) tap water with 1/2 campden tab

2 & 3 were better than 1. 2 needed longer for burnt matches notes to dissapear but it was better than 3 after that wheras 3 needed less conditioning time to be drinkable.

Here's the thing I've brewed with m41 and am now getting a farty smell. I didn't use to have that before with m41. whats changed? tap water and 1/2 a campden tablet. I think I'll try with tap water only for a future brew. I've noticed this smell since using campden tabs. Mrs DOJ doesn't want this smell again wheras we both thought the fermentation smell before campden was lovely. If it makes better beer that will be a tough call.

 

[MashBag]

Farty or eggy?

 

[peebee]

If my babblings have succeeded in getting a single person off using bottled water instead of using their very low alkalinity Welsh water, I should be proud of myself ... bit worrying about the "farty smell" though.

If the Campden tablet causes it, I'd be surprised as it's so little. You could try less, like 1/4 a tablet or none. I only use about 0.1g of sodium metabisulphite in 50L and that's double the "calculated" dose. But them "Belgian" style yeasts are notorious for developing "interesting" smells/flavours. Could try different yeast? Chlorine in water will evaporate if the water is left uncovered overnight and you don't use Campden tablet.


Reawakening this thread (not a year old yet) I find interesting! It's pre-"Defuddler" spreadsheet times for me! And I'm currently doing more work on that spreadsheet. I was doing the scheduled tests on my water only this morning.

Like in the Dwr Cymru water report you've posted here; the "Bicarbonate" levels are nearly identical to mine (25ppm) but it won't be anything like that! Your water is dosed with stuff to stop the pipes rotting in the acid water. They measure the "Bicarbonate" or "Alkalinity" at their works. By the time it gets to you the dosing has been doing its work, being consumed seeing off acid, and is probably about 10ppm (as Bicarbonate) at your tap. Mine is! I'm about a month into a three-month scheme testing "Alkalinity" in my water. And the "dosing" they use is Slaked Lime (Calcium Hydroxide).

An updated "Defuddler" will be out shortly to deal with all that.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I assume this is mainly a beer issue as I have not had an issue that I know of at least with Cider or Wine.
I live in Scotland with very soft water but full of chemicals I imagine.
For my first Stout and Lager i treated the water with sodium metabisulfite and left for 24hrs covered then used it for the 2 brews.

Still fermenting so no idea if its made any difference

 

[dad_of_jon]

Farty or eggy?

eggy farts!

 

[dad_of_jon]

If the Campden tablet causes it, I'd be surprised as it's so little. You could try less, like 1/4 a tablet or none. I only use about 0.1g of sodium metabisulphite in 50L and that's double the "calculated" dose. But them "Belgian" style yeasts are notorious for developing "interesting" smells/flavours. Could try different yeast? Chlorine in water will evaporate if the water is left uncovered overnight and you don't use Campden tablet.

Cheers, I think whilst I understand about leaving water uncovered overnight, I don't do a full boil so I could get spoilage microorganisms in the unboiled water?

 

[peebee]

@dad_of_jon: Although it's not "Alkalinity" you're testing for, I've just finished a tortuous session measuring my water this evening. Like I said, the Public Report gives very much like yours ... 20.83 mg/l as CaCO3 (25.42 mg/l as Bicarbonate). But I also said it won't be that at your tap (the water is very acid moorland run-off and will be dosed at the Water Treatment Works with Lime to knock the Alkalinity up a bit - most of which is consumed on the way to your tap).

I've got a snazzy (expensive!) "Hanna" Alkalinity Checker to help me with my planned three months series of weekly tests, and it quick returned "12 mg/l as CaCO3". But I wanted a crosscheck for this sample using a popular "Salifert" Alk/KH tester ... That's when the torture starts! They just don't have the resolution for testing such low Alkalinity. So, just like they say you can use half the recommended sample (of 4ml) for a quick and dirty check, I go the other way with four times the normal sample size (4x4ml is 16ml!). Still only required five drops before it changed. Reading the instructions for their result table and dividing the result by four (!) it came out as 1.15mEq/l (or 0.4 dKH if you read that scale).

Gordon Bennett! So, we need the units to be the same ... "12 mg/l as CaCO3" is 12x1.22 or "14.64 mg/l as Bicarbonate". 0.0164x14.64 gives 0.24 mEq/l, which is virtually the same as 1.1... no it's not! I'll look at it again tomorrow if I'm feeling up to wasting more time. The Salifert kit is eons past its BBE date anyway (and I guess I was abusing its proper use).

 

[MashBag]

If the smell is no co2, more stink bomb, hydrogen Sulphide is being produced because the yeast have a nutrition issue.

Next time use a proprietary nutrient.

With this batch...
Add some nutrition now, if it's still fermenting.

And then to correct the problem, stir with a piece of clean pure copper. The smell will dissappear. And the taste will change. Stop stiring and remove the pipe. New 15mm copper pipe is ideal. Wash with citric acid before using.

 

[peebee]

I'll look at it again tomorrow if I'm feeling up to wasting more time.

Well, I did. Stuffed it through this on-line calculator: Alkalinity Conversion Calculator - hamzasreefs.com

Came out 7.2 ppm. That'll be as CaCO3 ... always is when not told, because those writing it will think there's nowt else. So that'll be just short 9 mg/l as bicarbonate ... close enough to 14.6 mg/l as bicarbonate given it comes from a two-year out'o'date Salifert test kit. I'll try figure why I couldn't arrive at that last night. But perhaps I made the point ... tying down such low values for Alkalinity is a major headache. Fortunately, only 5-10% of the UK population have to suffer such water ( ).

Makes me wonder why some home-brewers are so dead-set on having such low "dissolved solids" water? Even going to the expense and effort of using 100% RO water. Or bottled water. Neither with a reliable analysis attached. Using such water to dilute the public water might have some benefit? But using it solely as an uncertain base from which to build an "ideal" profile all seems a bit pie-in-the-sky. But I'm not so nasty as to level such criticism without being able to offer answers. It'd what I've been up to with this "Water Defuddler" project. A new update should be available soon, I've just got some finishing touches to make it not appear at all daunting. Within a week? I gain nothing from it except the warm fuzzy feeling that I might be helping some people out with it. I promise you will not need to know anything about "mEq/L", or fazzy-dinga-dongs per quasi-pint, or the molecular weight of Unobtainium salts...



And it won't be responsible for "farty smells".