Simple Water Treatment for an Idiot!

[peebee]

A little bird told me: (I haven't asked for or been given permission to name him, I can't assume someone with an excellent reputation, most of you know him, wants to be associated with my lunatic babblings!) that the "op’s water report is complete cr&p and unworkable" and to try "double the calcium" as he found this would work down there. Which I did, and lo-and-behold:

The "alkalinity" reported is assumed to be "as HCO3" 'cos it's specified as such in other correspondence from SE Water; so is coloured in. The Calcium has been "adapted" so has gone grey ("Foetid Mire"). But otherwise, a vast improvement.

Following the calculations deep into the "Foetid Mire", the balance begins to break up ("TDS" and "Cation/Anion Mass Balance") but you shouldn't be looking down there anyway!

"Total Hardness" in the "Foetid Mire" must also change to keep up with the change to Calcium, but again, you shouldn't be looking down there! But the "Permanent Hardness" is now something that can be believed, but you shouldn't be looking at this either!

I'm not entirely confident, but this analysis (with the increased Calcium and "Alkalinity" matching the report) should be okay as a starting point for reputable water calculators.


BTW: The "little bird" transformed into a legendary "Roc" when it came to me mentioning "hard" and "soft" water. (I must stop talking "hardness", I must stop talking "hardness", I must ... ).

If you need to be sure of the analysis sending a sample to Phoenix Analytical is a good move.

 

[peebee]

Interesting little side-line: Note the report has two values for Calcium?

(The middle value, 30.33mg/l, is the "mean" which is what I'd use), and lower down:

(mg/l and ppm is the same in these circumstances). The second example is from "Hardness": The figure (obviously not doubled here like in the previous post) is "as" Calcium and contains one, possibly more, elements that are NOT Calcium! The second element will be Magnesium. The actual figure for Magnesium (6.27ppm) multiplied by 4.118 gives 25.8ppm of "Magnesium" masquerading (equivalence) as Calcium. It's added to the Calcium figure

See why I say, "stay clear of "Hardness"?

 

[peebee]

...

View attachment 89529

Crickey, never saw this posted! I wrote that "Defuddler" so there wouldn't be need for stupid complex water analysis, yet here we go. Deep breath ...

Where'd you get the 76.22 of carbonate? "Hardness? 94.22 says the report ... as CaCO3, and CaCO3 is used (as an equivalent) because some things are so simple (for the days before calculators): 40% is calcium, so 94.22*0.4=37.69, and 60% is carbonate, 94.22*0.6=56.53 ... nope, not that!

"Alkalinity"? The report has "154.67" ... of what, they don't tell, try CaCO3 ... 154.67*0.6=92.80 ... nope, not that! Try "as HCO3", that's a little bit awkward, keep it simple and convert to CaCO3 ... 154.67/1.22=126.78 and 60% of that, 126.78*0.6=76.06. Ah-ha. That must be it?

But there is a problem. The 76.06 is 126.78 "as CaCO3". It's "Alkalinity" but in "old-school" it would be the same as "temporary hardness" (for tap water). And total hardness is the sum of temporary hardness and permanent hardness. But total hardness is down as 94.42 (mg/l as CaCO3). Something is obviously not adding up! It's why I don't like using all this "equivalency" bobbins. There's a lot of sodium in this water but I haven't heard of "sodium carbonate" being a natural component in UK tap water. Common in "softened" water (sodium salts do not create "hardness") but the UK doesn't do that, and this water wouldn't have a need for softening.


Those results out of Graham's water calculator look very suspicious! And I've had advice from someone with more credibility than even Mr Wheeler! Whose response to that "report" was "the op’s water report is complete cr&p and unworkable". I think I'll have to put this one by him? (Might take a while).

 

[Sadfield]

"I do intend to go into the water profile in more detail but it's a bit too much to deal with at the moment so if anyone has a simple "magic" treatment to give me a good start and give me a nice brew I would be very grateful. I do realise this can be a big rabbit hole to go down."

Boil your water for 10 minutes. Leave to cool overnight and then decant off the chalk (calcium carbonate) that settles to the bottom. Add a teaspoon of gypsum to replace the removed calcium. Done.

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/pre-boiling-water-treatment

Point proven, by the mad hatter and his many riddles.

 

[Sadfield]

I am about to start my all grain journey and I want to deal with my water! I have read quite a lot about the subject but as I am at the start I want to do something simple to improve my water until I can progress.

Beware of those that want to 'fuddle' you.

Improvements in brewing will come quickly with putting a paddle in a mash and getting beer brewed. Then follow the advice in the first two replies @Agentgonzo and @Benfleet Brewery

Water doesn't need to be complicated.

 

[peebee]

As we're busy analysing what Dave may have said, I'll remind folk of his more recent post:

OK MashBag here goes:

Shop - Tesco Express TN33 0BN
Water Co - Southeast Water

Intrigued as to what may happen!

Dave

Guess he's seen? The squabbling usually infects a wider range of participant; don't know where @Sadfield and I went wrong?


I should remember why I'm here too: To see how that "Defuddler" performs outside its native (low water "alkalinity") Wales. And it's still getting "fuddled" (by lots and lots of Sodium?). I'll sort that out. Meanwhile Dave has got his "magic" by boiling plain water the night before, letting it cool, etc. ... I (and others?) will be better prepared for him when he gets bored (and impoverished?) by that. That should take about ... a week? (Warning, for Dave: Boiling only deals with a proportion of the problem, and it's difficult to judge what "proportion", but not worrying about it seems a popular solution).

And I've got a "thank you" for @Sadfield! So incensed to the outpourings here was my "water chemistry advisor", I got my reply very quickly by late last night ( he seemingly wishes to stay anonymous - well, he's trying to make money from related stuff, not get himself associated with a well-known "real" loony ... err, I'm talking about me!). An early Christmas present? I've some heavy digesting to deal with ...

 

[peebee]

There's a lot of sodium in this water but I haven't heard of "sodium carbonate" being a natural component in UK tap water.

Silly me. Blinkered. "Sodium Carbonate" perhaps not, but "Sodium Chloride" (common salt) there's loads about.

 

[NIGHTSKY BREWING]

Hi all,

I am about to start my all grain journey and I want to deal with my water! I have read quite a lot about the subject but as I am at the start I want to do something simple to improve my water until I can progress.

My kit brews were OK but I think they had what I would call an astringent quality - all I did was put a Campden tablet in so not much in the way of experimentation!

I do intend to go into the water profile in more detail but it's a bit too much to deal with at the moment so if anyone has a simple "magic" treatment to give me a good start and give me a nice brew I would be very grateful. I do realise this can be a big rabbit hole to go down.

I live on the South coast if that gives any help at all and I don't really want to be lugging gallons of distilled water back home either! so an idiot proof guide to simple additions would be great.

Thanks in advance of your help.

I,m East Sussex.... Heathfield

 

[Sadfield]

Not really a squabble on this end. Just felt the OP got abandoned by those that denounced the advice already given in the first few posts. All of which would have led to the OP reducing alkalinity and increasing calcium. Fitting the request for 'something simple to improve my water until I can progress'. Perfection wasn't sought.

 

[peebee]

@Sadfield: Why'd you say the Original Poster was "abandoned"? You are obviously forgetting, or ignoring, his post:

... Intrigued as to what may happen!

Crikey ... It's still happening!

Anyway ... best I put you back on "ignore" or this thread will never end. There you go ... last word to you, just like you like it ...

 

[Sadfield]

Too right I'll have the last word.

I should remember why I'm here too: To see how that "Defuddler" performs outside its native (low water "alkalinity") Wales.

So incensed to the outpourings here was my "water chemistry advisor", I got my reply very quickly by late last night ( he seemingly wishes to stay anonymous - well, he's trying to make money from related stuff

Abandoned. Yes, it appears there's other motivations from @peebee and his expert. That's why a simple little bit of advice to point a new AG brewer in the right direction hasn't appeared. No intention of helping.

 

[peebee]

A correction!

Interesting little side-line: Note the report has two values for Calcium?

View attachment 89532
(The middle value, 30.33mg/l, is the "mean" which is what I'd use), and lower down:
View attachment 89533
(mg/l and ppm is the same in these circumstances). The second example is from "Hardness": The figure (obviously not doubled here like in the previous post) is "as" Calcium and contains one, possibly more, elements that are NOT Calcium! The second element will be Magnesium. The actual figure for Magnesium (6.27ppm) multiplied by 4.118 gives 25.8ppm of "Magnesium" masquerading (equivalence) as Calcium. It's added to the Calcium figure

See why I say, "stay clear of "Hardness"?

Flippin' rubbish!

The actual figure for Magnesium (6.27ppm) multiplied by 4.118 gives 25.8ppm of "Magnesium" masquerading (equivalence) as Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). It's added to the Calcium as Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) figure. That's the actual figure for Calcium (30.33ppm) multiplied by 2.5 gives 75.8ppm of "Calcium" masquerading (equivalence) as Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). They are added together to give a "Hardness" figure of 101.6ppm as Calcium Carbonate or (divide by 2.5) 40.64ppm as Calcium.

I hate being the reason for anyone getting the wrong idea 'cos of my mistakes! [EDIT: I'm only putting this complex stuff up because it's illustrating the sort of tosh connected with "Hardness","CaCO3", etc. that you can do without!].

Note these figures are 40.64 and 101.6, not 37.77 and 94.42 like in the report. That's because the report is "complete cr&p and unworkable". Just like my "advisor" has been trying to tell me! But it doesn't do enough to dig me out the hole I created.

And my "Defuddler"?

So it works? No, no, no. Unlike Graham's water calculator the "Defuddler" (which isn't a water calculator, only a "report cleaner") has a lid! And I don't like what I can see under it ... Like:

Hmm ...

I'll shutup again now.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I,m East Sussex.... Heathfield

Lovely part of the world.

@David Woods
I'd still go with post 7 treat the chlorine and consider the pH and get brewing.

The my water is X what shall I do in the rest of the replies is " debated ".

 

[peebee]

@David Woods
I'd still go with post 7 treat the chlorine and consider the pH and get brewing.

Yeap, treat for chlorine. But "consider the pH" requires that water report. And I think it's safe to say there is something very wrong with it! I've even tried calling them on the phone and got no-where. You could try the ever-popular Salifert "KH/Alkalinity" kit or get a sample to Phoenix Analytical (next testing scheduled 28th September ... I think?).

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@peebee
I think a pH meter would be more reliable than the water report. Then just add acid if needed.
But @David Woods
Why not speak to this brewery near you and they may have a proper water report and give you great advice.
https://battlebrewery.com

 

[Sadfield]

That water report can't be trusted for reasons undisclosed, send a sample to my 'water chemistry advisor'.

 

[NIGHTSKY BREWING]

Battle brewery is very friendly.

 

[peebee]

... But @David Woods
Why not speak to this brewery near you and they may have a proper water report and give you great advice.
https://battlebrewery.com

That's a good idea!

Battle brewery is very friendly.

So they are! But they can't help ... well, they can sort of (and do!) as they use the mains supplied water as is without any "testing" or additions. So, much like @David Woods is doing at the moment! He can continue to follow that example if he wants. No worrying about the water, just brewing beer! So the water report claims too little Calcium? But the water report is cr&p anyway, so the reported Calcium is probably cr&p too, and it doesn't stop Battle Brewery brewing with it.



Has been an intriguing exercise though. What to do when the water authority is reporting nonsense about their own product. I put the water analysis through the "Bru'n Water" calculator ... I should have done it earlier ... it deals with this naff report by not allowing "temporary hardness" to exceed "total hardness", that way you can't have negative "permanent hardness" like you can "under the bonnet" of my "Defuddler", but you can have (and do get) zero "permanent hardness" which is impossible too. (P.S. It's "under-the-bonnet" and out of sight 'cos that "hardness" business is of no real value to brewing beer). Otherwise, Bru'n Water backs up the results from the "Defuddler".

An "artificial" fix. Does the job (error "fixed") but I think I'd prefer some hint of what it's up to.

 

[David Woods]

Hi All,
Thanks all for the help/advice and suggestions - it did get a bit more intense than I had thought and whilst I wasn't expecting a magic bullet I did get some great stuff. As I said at the start I do intend to get into this more as I go along. I have bought some test kits which I think will be a good simple way for me to start - I will then adjust as I go along. My palate is not too educated but I knows what I like .

Talking to Battle Brewery (after buying a few of their pints) is a great idea too!

Please don't think I haven't ignored any of this advice but I need to start somewhere a bit simpler.

Thanks all and when I have gestated this beer I will report back - as I said originally I felt my kits beers were very hard/alkaline but I am really only guessing and they may just have been poor kits coupled with my poor skills!

Thanks all

 

[The Furnace Green Brewer]

Hi all,

I am about to start my all grain journey and I want to deal with my water! I have read quite a lot about the subject but as I am at the start I want to do something simple to improve my water until I can progress.

My kit brews were OK but I think they had what I would call an astringent quality - all I did was put a Campden tablet in so not much in the way of experimentation!

I do intend to go into the water profile in more detail but it's a bit too much to deal with at the moment so if anyone has a simple "magic" treatment to give me a good start and give me a nice brew I would be very grateful. I do realise this can be a big rabbit hole to go down.

I live on the South coast if that gives any help at all and I don't really want to be lugging gallons of distilled water back home either! so an idiot proof guide to simple additions would be great.

Thanks in advance of your help.

1 tsp of gypsum 1 Tsp of flaked carbon choline 1/2 tsp of Epsom salts for hard water and look a A/M/S from brewbitz