Wall mounted regulators

[peebee]

There is confusion about this "is it CO2 or mixed gas"! What is "Kegland" playing at?

The Mk.4 is capable of handling very high pressure, such as in a "mixed gas" cylinder. It will or course handle the much lower pressure in a CO2 cylinder. Different nuts for different cylinders are only to prevent attaching a regulator only capable of handling a low-pressure CO2 cylinder to a high-pressure cylinder.

The other regulator connector (with hose) can be for anything, CO2, mixed gas, chlorine gas (), just anything ... the pressure is regulated (certainly <10BAR) this side.

As already mentioned, a "DIN477/BS341/W21.8" female nut is required for CO2 (UK), a male nut for "mixed gas". What these "type 30" and "type 50" nuts are is anyone's guess. If (and only if) the regulator is capable of handling the high pressure, a convertor nut could be used. I'm not entirely in agreement with these "convertor nuts" because they reintroduce the possibility of potentially fatal errors. The nuts attach directly to the cylinder ... no hose, no "wall mounts": But you can get "convertors" on hoses, which again I don't entirely agree with because of the possibility of "errors". And chain your cylinders upright to a wall so they don't fall over.

The low-pressure regulated hoses ("bus lines"), manifolds and secondary regulators can be wall mounted (but be careful, even 4BAR can be used to inflict pain!).


High pressure gas can kill, in some pretty horrific ways. Always be very sure of what you do.

 

[LeeH]

Micromatic certainly do as I have one.

Probably 1m long hose.

 

[peebee]

Edit: My thinking was I'd have carbonation in the keg and use the N2 capsules to push out the beer. The beauty of them is that you won't use too much and it's got its own built in regulator. Very neat without messing around with extra lines and regulators etc.

@Larse, I'm surprised, you are usually more cautiously correct about this gas caper:

If you use one gas (CO2) to carbonate, and another gas as a propellant, the other gas dilutes the gas in the keg, and the carbonation (CO2) in the beer falls away likewise. Laws of "Partial Pressure".

Always dispense with the same gas as you carbonate. Unless it's "Real Ale", in which case you don't care if the carbonation is reducing (just get it drunk quickish).

 

[aero-spaced-out]

There is confusion about this "is it CO2 or mixed gas"! What is "Kegland" playing at?

The Mk.4 is capable of handling very high pressure, such as in a "mixed gas" cylinder. It will or course handle the much lower pressure in a CO2 cylinder. Different nuts for different cylinders are only to prevent attaching a regulator only capable of handling a low-pressure CO2 cylinder to a high-pressure cylinder.

This is the important part to me.
I want to be sure that the reg is capable. I bought a reg listed for use with CO2. As likely as it that it could be suitable for the mixed gas, it was listed for use with CO2 and therefore will be used for the purpose.
I'm not looking for an adapter to share teg

I'm looking at buying a reg that is rated for use with mixed gas and possibly adding a hose to it that is also for that specific use case.
It's what I'm struggling with and ultimately probably going to just give up on and use a bottle mounted reg on my mixed gas bottles.

There's a fair difference between the pressure of pure CO2 and N2/CO2 blend and that, respectfully, scares the **** out of me.
I've firsthand seen the damage that a hose coming off a with 10 bar of air flowing through it can do as we had a near miss with a machine in my last job. I'm not prepared to play games with pressurised air.

The small TMM for the nitrogen chargers have peaked my interest for on the go but I'd be unsure how to approach this with carbing on CO2 then dispensing under N2.

Always dispense with the same gas as you carbonate.

So if I'm making a stout that I want to serve on mixed gas for that visually appealing cascading effect and the finer bubbles (effectively what guinness has) then I need to use my 70/30 to carb, then dispense with this too?
How does this affect my carbing times and temps?

 

[Dark Arts]

Yep got an adaptor for the disposable cylinder on there. was the only place I could see that did what I wanted

 

[peebee]

This is the important part to me. ...

No need to be scared of gas cylinders, just respectful of them ... which I think is what you're doing.


Yes, carb with 70/30 (the "convention" is perhaps to put the CO2 first ... so, it's 30/70?) and serve with 30/70. Rules of "Partial Pressure" means if the gas is at 32PSIG (sorry ... that's 32+15PSI absolute, physics always has to make things complicated, so PSI is relative to a vacuum not atmospheric pressure) the pressure for CO2 is 30% of 32+15PSI, which is 14PSI, or -1PSIG (what the guage tells you). Yeah, I know, flippin' baffling isn't it. At least I rounded up decimals (atmospheric pressure is about 14.7PSI, not 15PSI).

Nitrogen dissolves very slowly, so you do need the high pressure along with low temperature to help speed it along, say 2-4°C as it seems popular. It needs leaving a few days to get properly gased up ... ask @LeeH, he seems to know the best rate, 'cos he does it, I don't, 'cos I don't like it (blah)!

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Micromatic certainly do as I have one.

Probably 1m long hose.

I have seen this one before which is a micromatic:

https://a1barstuff.co.uk/mixed-gas-primary-board-mount-regulator.html

It's one I've been looking at for purchase.

No need to be scared of gas cylinders, just respectful of them ... which I think is what you're doing.


Yes, carb with 70/30 (the "convention" is perhaps to put the CO2 first ... so, it's 30/70?) and serve with 30/70. Rules of "Partial Pressure" means if the gas is at 32PSIG (sorry ... that's 32+15PSI absolute, physics always has to make things complicated, so PSI is relative to a vacuum not atmospheric pressure) the pressure for CO2 is 30% of 32+15PSI, which is 14PSI, or -1PSIG (what the guage tells you). Yeah, I know, flippin' baffling isn't it. At least I rounded up decimals (atmospheric pressure is about 14.7PSI, not 15PSI).

Nitrogen dissolves very slowly, so you do need the high pressure along with low temperature to help speed it along, say 2-4°C as it seems popular. It needs leaving a few days to get properly gased up ... ask @LeeH, he seems to know the best rate, 'cos he does it, I don't, 'cos I don't like it (blah)!

Everyday is a learning day with this! Bring it on.

 

[LeeH]

That’s the bad boy.

 

[peebee]

That’s the bad boy

It certainly is! £108 (incl. VAT)! Hang on, I've got it … nope, it's not April the first either.

 

[peebee]

Malt-Miller (not renowned for being "cheap) sell it for £65 (incl.) but with the CO2 nut and no hose (but I've said I don't entirely agree with flexible "hoses" connecting to cylinders). The regulator gauge suggests it's up to it (3000PSI is as high as I've seen for "normal" compressed gas cylinders, often less than that) but I don't know if they do replacement nuts for mixed gas? There are Chinese adapters, but I'd need to be certain before trusting one (the Chinese makers don't care if you blow your head off, as long as they're selling them).

 

[Larse]

@Larse, I'm surprised, you are usually more cautiously correct about this gas caper:

If you use one gas (CO2) to carbonate, and another gas as a propellant, the other gas dilutes the gas in the keg, and the carbonation (CO2) in the beer falls away likewise. Laws of "Partial Pressure".

Always dispense with the same gas as you carbonate. Unless it's "Real Ale", in which case you don't care if the carbonation is reducing (just get it drunk quickish).

I know, I know. But the CO2 in the keg was naturally created, not added, so after the gizmo is connected, it'll be N2 from then on.

 

[Larse]

Anyhoo I've tried the N2 cartridges and they work. Took three to get the proper cascading pour (although I made a bit of a horlicks of one of them). So maybe two would have been enough. I have it pressurised to just over 20Psi (not sure if this is correct or not, but was about the level where I got the nice cascading pour and a good head).

Also could be a factor of my beer line length. 2.5m of 4mm is probably a bit long.

 

[peebee]

… CO2 in the keg was naturally created, not added, so after the gizmo is connected, it'll be N2 from then on

Eh? I'm not going to argue 'cos the Maths is going to get excruciating. Two gases trying to equalise in proportion in both liquid and headspace but the gases having different rates of absorption, and … argg!!!

It's not worth it. Best advice I can give is … don't do it: Use the same gas or mix of gases for topping up as for originally carbonating (naturally evolved CO2 can be considered identical to that from a cylinder … 'cos it is). One thing for sure, it won't go "wrong" immediately … it creeps up, insidiously.

Took three to get the proper cascading pour …

Someone was explaining this effect recently. Was it @RoomWithABrew? May have been a different forum? CO2 going up, N2 coming down? The explanation frazzled me 'ead too.

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Am I correct in saying that this is Daltons Law for the Partial Pressure Rules being talked about here?
Except a bit more convoluted since absorption rates are now thrown into the mix?

 

[peebee]

Am I correct in saying that this is Daltons Law for the Partial Pressure Rules being talked about here?
Except a bit more convoluted since absorption rates are now thrown into the mix?

Well, N2 is not absorbing so fast as CO2 yet both are trying to attain equilibrium. Hang-on ... head's over-heating ... need ice ...

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Eh? I'm not going to argue 'cos the Maths is going to get excruciating. Two gases trying to equalise in proportion in both liquid and headspace but the gases having different rates of absorption, and … argg!!!

It's not worth it. Best advice I can give is … don't do it: Use the same gas or mix of gases for topping up as for originally carbonating (naturally evolved CO2 can be considered identical to that from a cylinder … 'cos it is). One thing for sure, it won't go "wrong" immediately … it creeps up, insidiously.


Someone was explaining this effect recently. Was it @RoomWithABrew? May have been a different forum? CO2 going up, N2 coming down? The explanation frazzled me 'ead too.

Not sure if it was me but it's all about Henrys law I think.

It's okay to carbonate to the intended vols of CO2 that you want ( ie the CO2 vols that your beer gas will give) .
With intention of Beer gas at about 35psi.

However if you drive your finished carbonated beer with N2 alone you will end up with uncarbonated beer which we both agree is not a good idea.

Nitrogen about 100x less soluble than CO2 at 10C in water.

 

[peebee]

Not sure if it was me but it's all about Henrys law I think.

Thanks! Sorry, I guess it wasn't you? I've had a hunt about but can't find the post now, but I did come across this: The Fluid Flow Dynamics Behind The Gravity Defying Bubbles In Guinness

Doesn't mention the role CO2 may (or doesn't) play ... so is different to what I originally saw. But it's backed up with a jolly video.


Henry's law ... that's it! incorporates solubility of gas (and temperature). But I think @aero-spaced-out saw his opportunity to go in for the kill by chucking "Dalton's Law" at me. I ain't a clue who this "Henry" or "Dalton" is. Have I broken one or both of them laws, and will I be dealt with severely?

Yes it is 35PSI ( ... G!) you're supposed to set your 30/70 mix to. Don't know where I got 32 from? 35PSIG will result in about 1.1 or 1.2 volumes CO2, just right for a Stout before some twerp threw all that Nitrogen trash in it ... bit easier on the head than -1PSIG too!

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Henry's law ... that's it! incorporates solubility of gas (and temperature). But I think @aero-spaced-out saw his opportunity to go in for the kill by chucking "Dalton's Law" at me. I ain't a clue who this "Henry" or "Dalton" is. Have I broken one or both of them laws, and will I be dealt with severely?

Haven't much of an idea about these in all honesty, it just sounded fairly similar to something I done back in uni and wanted to check if it was the same
I was wrong

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Just as a quick update
Priced the reg and the gas from a local supplier and it's amounting to nearly 300 quid

I think this is the first time I've actually hesitated on pulling the trigger on something for this hobby due to the costs.

Those creamy pints are calling me but how much stout would I be drinking along side the lager before it paid for itself yanno.

I habitually choose expensive hobbies and then complain when I have no money.

 

[peebee]

Priced the reg and the gas from a local supplier and it's amounting to nearly 300 quid

Outrageous! That's 5x more than I coughed up for an Oxygen cylinder which I thought was scandalous. But I think I've eliminated myself from having any "real use" opinion of mixed gas! (Blah! ... although I will drink the Guinness 0% cans which do have gas "widgets").

[EDIT: You are getting a cylinder for that price ... one that they'll refill? And a regulator. It's still scandalous!]