Videne - Is it that easy to use

[Cussword]

As it's not to far from me when I next need some iodophor I will be getting some Evans Vanodine Fam 30 which is a diary disinfectant, and has a wide range of dilutions and usage rates . . . It's also properly acidified so should always be at ph3.0 or less in use.

I seem to remember discussing this some years ago and getting a neutral response :whistle:
I could always take some of your hands :grin:

Me too :thumb:

 

[snail59]

After loosing 15lts to a metalic chemical off taste by not rinsing a Coni properly I have just ordered my first bottle of this.

 

[beermonsta]

I hate to be the one who breaks this to you all but I used to use videne (in fact I've still got some left in a bottle) but no longer any more. In fact the main reason I changed to Videne was because my water supply is heavily chlorinated and I was having problems with TCP taste as I used to use VWP (a chlorine based sanistiser) so I switched to minimise the amount of chlorine in my ale.

Since then I met a fellow brewer who shall be nameless but used to work for the company who made Videne and I have learnt that there are many chemicals which go into the production which are not safe for human consumption. In simple terms Videne is made as a topical sanitiser which it does so very effectively. Unfortunately it is not designed to be digested so even at no-rinse solutions you are consuming this product with little knowledge on what it may do to your body.
Be aware of this, and make your decisions based on this information. Some people will carry on using it on the assumption that it is harmless, but I make my assumptions in the same like that I have seen friends and relatives die based on the assumption that cigarettes will not harm them. Your decision ultimately.

 

[Aleman]

even at no-rinse solutions you are consuming this product with little knowledge on what it may do to your body.

Nameless chemicals, Nameless Brewer who used to work for the company producing Videne. :hmm:

Without knowing the facts . . . What? and How Much? . . . this is simply scaremongering . . . and for those concerned switch to Five Star Io Star Or Evans Vanodine FAM30 waich have been developed as NO RINSE dairy disinfectant solutions

Benzene causes cancer . . . . When filling your car with fuel you are exposed to benzene in the fuel vapours . . .in the US this is of such a concern that filling nozzles now capture that vapour and return it to the filling store, so no one is exposed to the harm it gives.

And watch out for Dihydrogen Monoxide . . . really nasty stuff

 

[bigred]

Does anyone know where the original recommendation came from? Has anyone had any bad brews after using it, the dilution seems a little extreme.

 

[Aleman]

Does anyone know where the original recommendation came from? Has anyone had any bad brews after using it, the dilution seems a little extreme.

The original recommendation comes from the US where BTF Iodophor has been in use as a dairy disinfectant at the free iodine concentration of 12.5ppm for years. Sourcing a sensible volume of iodophor here in the UK has always been difficult (unless you are willing to buy 5L or the stuff), until around 95-96 someone posted (on UK homebrew) about a product called Betadine which was an iodophor and has 10% free iodine . . . which lead to the 1.25ml/litre dilution to get 12.5ppm . . . I've been using since then and have yet to grow an extra head . . . or experience any iodine related symptoms . . . Like over active thyroid etc . . .Yes there are 'other' chemicals in it, but What? And at What Concentrations? . . . What 'chemicals' are there in Coca Cola, because I know that Coca Cola and Iodophor share at least one chemical in common

Betadine was withdrawn by the suppliers 3 or 4 years ago, due to concern over the excessive use neat in surgical applications by nursing staff, and we found another source of iodophor in videne

 

[beermonsta]

Without knowing the facts . . . What? and How Much? . . . this is simply scaremongering

no, it's just putting another piece of information out to the public to allow them to make up their own mind, as I said "your decision ultimately". I made up my mind, even without the full facts, as I'm not someone who wants to take any sort of risk with my health; and no doubt there are other people the same too so why should I not mention this?

"Scaremongering is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated" wikipedia 2011 ( )
I have no reason to cause fear, I have made no exaggerations, and no ultimate end to achieve other than sharing what knowledge I have gained to let others make their own decisions.

And watch out for Dihydrogen Monoxide . . . really nasty stuff

...it is if you breath it in :rofl:

 

[BigYin]

So what are these other chemicals?

I'll see what my bottle of videne lists :hmm:

 

[luckyeddie]

I have no idea whether the following article was written by a 'plant' (it's been done), but it makes interesting reading.

http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/maindocs/iodophor.htm

 

[BigYin]

I have no idea whether the following article was written by a 'plant' (it's been done), but it makes interesting reading.

http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/maindocs/iodophor.htm

interesting indeed, although it doesn't cover what other chemicals may be left behind to mix with your beer, even though clearly they can't be smelt or tasted, but if ingested, even at very small concentrations, could they gradually build up in the bpdy to a dangerous level??

Must say that my gut feeling is that there can't be much risk when you consider the dilution levels, and how little of that diluted solution will then mix with the large volume of beer, diluting it even further...

When you consider how glibly people spray chemicals around their home in the guise of air freshners, deoderants etc, with no thought of the long term effects of exposure to them, why worry about a tiny, tiny dilution, of chemicals tested and certfied safe for the food industry???

 

[beermonsta]

So what are these other chemicals?

I'll see what my bottle of videne lists :hmm:

The ingredients list all check out to be safe (unless your a fish!) but still I'm not willing to take any risk. In fact the MSDS only lists Glycerine and Polyvinylpyrrolidone iodine as being hazedous and goes on to say "There are no additional ingredients present which, within the current knowledge of the supplier and in the concentrations applicable, are classified as hazardous to health or the environment and hence require reporting in this section" and under the Toxicological information, Potential acute health effects for Ingestion it says "No known significant effects or critical hazards"

Thing is though this is for it's intended use as a "Skin antiseptic" for "professional use only" and it even says on the bottle "For external use only, not to be taken"
The company has a licence which will say this and any other use is not licenced. For me if, even at no-rinse solutions, it is not to be taken then I'll be replacing mine with something designed for the job!

here's my bottle:

Here are the ingredients:
povidone (Polyvinylpyrrolidone or PVP)-Iodine 10% w/w (1% available iodine) - the PVP is a wetting/film agent which is safe as it should just pass through your body.
Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate (Ammonium salt) - Surfactants (detergent/wetting agent)
Glycerin BP - moisturiser
Citric acid - acts as a buffer
Anhydrous Sodium Phosphate - acts as a buffer with the Citric acid, present to form a buffer to maintain a pH of between 3 and 5.5
Purified Water BP

If you can be bothered to read it all ( :) )here is what the company has to say
"Videne Antiseptic Solution
Trade Name of the Medicinal Product: Videne Antiseptic Solution. Qualitative and
Quantitative Composition: Povidone-iodine 10% w/w Pharmaceutical Form:Topical
Solution. Clinical Particulars - Therapeutic Indications: Videne Antiseptic Solution
is a broad-spectrum antiseptic for topical use. It may be used whenever an effective
antiseptic is required for the skin eg in casualty work or for pre-operative skin
preparation. It will give a colour delineation to the skin which effectively indicates
which areas of the skin remain antiseptic.Posology and Method of Administration:
Videne Antiseptic Solution is applied undiluted to the skin in the area to be
disinfected painting on with a gauze swab. It can then be removed with sterile
gauze swabs. Videne Antiseptic Solution may also be applied on impregnated gauze
swabs which are then held on to the skin with bandages. There are no special
dosage recommendations for children or elderly patients. Contra-indications:
Videne Antiseptic Solution must never be administered orally. Special Warning and
Precautions for Use: Care should be taken with known iodine-sensitive subjects,
although such people do not normally react to povidone-iodine. Interactions with
Other Medicinal Products and Other Forms of Interaction: None stated.
Pregnancy and Lactation: Videne Antiseptic Solution is not recommended for use
during pregnancy because of the possibility of absorption through broken skin and
subsequent interference with tests of neonatal thyroid function. Effects on Ability to
Drive and Use Machines: None stated. Undesirable Effects: In very rare instances
Videne Antiseptic Solution may produce skin reactions in iodine-sensitive subjects.
These reactions subside on cessation of treatment.Overdose: In cases where
Videne Antiseptic Solution has been taken orally, gastric lavage with dilute starch
mucilage or a 1% solution of sodium thiosulphate must be administered. The
electrolyte balance must be corrected and lost fluids replaced. Pharmacological
Properties: Pharmacodynamic Properties: Povidone-iodine has antiseptic activity
and is used mainly for the treatment of contaminated wounds and pre-operative
preparation of skin and mucous membranes. It is considered to be less irritant than
iodine.Pharmacokinetic Properties: Povidone-iodine is slightly absorbed when
applied to the skin. Iodides are excreted mainly in the urine, with smaller amounts
appearing in the faeces, saliva and sweat. Preclinical Safety Data: Povidone-iodine
had a low acute toxicity in both dogs and rats following either oral or intraperitoneal
administration. Absorption of iodine through intact skin is low following the
application of solutions of povidone-iodine although systemic absorption of iodine
is greatly increased if the solutions are applied to broken skin, mucous membranes
or are introduced into cavities of the body. At subcutaneous dose levels of up to
75mg/kg/day, povidone-iodine was non-teratogenic in rabbits following
administration to pregnant animals during the period of organogenesis. Some early
in vitro studies indicated a possible mutagenic action for povidone-iodine. However,
a number of later studies, using in vitro and in vivo test systems, do not indicate a
significant level of mutagenic/genotoxic activity for povidone-iodine. Although
conflicting data have been published, there is no convincing evidence to suggest
that povidone-iodine adversely affects wound healing. Concentration of 0.05 and
0.5% povidone-iodine did not cause significant ocular damage when administered
into the vitreous cavities of rabbits’ eyes. There is some evidence to suggest that
povidone-iodine-containing solutions applied to the round window of the chinchilla
ear could result in high frequency hearing loss. Pharmaceutical Particulars - List
of Excipients: Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate (Ammonium Salt), Glycerol, Citric Acid
Di-sodium Phosphate Anhydrous, Purified Water BP Incompatibilities: None stated.
Shelf Life: 24 months. Special Precautions for Storage: Store below 30°C in a dry
place, protected from light. Nature and Contents of Container: Videne Antiseptic
Solution is packaged in a 500ml HDPE bottle sealed with a plastic screw cap.
Instructions for Use and Handling: None stated. Legal Category: P Cost: Unit
price £1.85 Marketing Authorisation Holder: Ecolab Ltd trading as Adams
Healthcare, Lotherton Way, Garforth, Leeds, LS25 2JY. Marketing Authorisation
Number: PL 04509/0041. Date of Preparation: 1 March 2003."

Yes I know! £1.85 - I was ripped off :lol:

 

[BigYin]

Ecolab Videne antiseptic solution



Active Ingredient : Povidone-Iodine 10% w/w (1% w/w available iodine)

I found a bit of info on that ingredient from the Videne hand scrub : Povidone-iodine is slightly absorbed when applied to the skin. Iodides are excreted mainly in the urine, with smaller amounts appearing in the faeces, saliva and sweat.


Other ingredients:

Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate (ammonium salt)
Glycerin BP
Citric Acid
Anhydrous Sodium Phosphate
Purified Water BP


There's nothing leaps out at me when googling these chemicals - they are used in a very wide range of products and there's no suggestion they are dangerous for consumption or long term exposure, unless of course it's to the very high concentrations of the pure chemical.

The iodine is excreted, and the Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate breaks down in biological systems, so I expect it will be excreted too..

 

[BigYin]

Thanks for that beermonsta :drink: :drink:

I've pulled out the most relevant bits :

If you can be bothered to read it all ( :) )here is what the company has to say
"Videne Antiseptic Solution
Trade Name of the Medicinal Product: Videne Antiseptic Solution.

Overdose: In cases where Videne Antiseptic Solution has been taken orally, gastric lavage with dilute starch mucilage or a 1% solution of sodium thiosulphate must be administered. The electrolyte balance must be corrected and lost fluids replaced.

Pharmacokinetic Properties: Povidone-iodine is slightly absorbed when applied to the skin. Iodides are excreted mainly in the urine, with smaller amounts appearing in the faeces, saliva and sweat.

Preclinical Safety Data:
Povidone-iodine had a low acute toxicity in both dogs and rats following either oral or intraperitoneal
administration. Absorption of iodine through intact skin is low following the application of solutions of povidone-iodine although systemic absorption of iodine is greatly increased if the solutions are applied to broken skin, mucous membranes or are introduced into cavities of the body. At subcutaneous dose levels of up to 75mg/kg/day, povidone-iodine was non-teratogenic in rabbits following administration to pregnant animals during the period of organogenesis. Some early in vitro studies indicated a possible mutagenic action for povidone-iodine. However,
a number of later studies, using in vitro and in vivo test systems, do not indicate a significant level of mutagenic/genotoxic activity for povidone-iodine. Although conflicting data have been published, there is no convincing evidence to suggest that povidone-iodine adversely affects wound healing. Concentration of 0.05 and 0.5% povidone-iodine did not cause significant ocular damage when administered
into the vitreous cavities of rabbits’ eyes. There is some evidence to suggest that povidone-iodine-containing solutions applied to the round window of the chinchilla ear could result in high frequency hearing loss.

Pharmaceutical Particulars - List of Excipients: Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate (Ammonium Salt), Glycerol, Citric Acid Di-sodium Phosphate Anhydrous, Purified Water BP

Incompatibilities: None stated.

Shelf Life: 24 months.

Special Precautions for Storage: Store below 30°C in a dry place, protected from light.

Nature and Contents of Container: Videne Antiseptic Solution is packaged in a 500ml HDPE bottle sealed with a plastic screw cap.

Instructions for Use and Handling: None stated.

Legal Category: P

Cost: Unit price £1.85

Marketing Authorisation Holder: Ecolab Ltd trading as AdamsHealthcare, Lotherton Way, Garforth, Leeds, LS25 2JY. Marketing Authorisation
Number: PL 04509/0041. Date of Preparation: 1 March 2003."

Yes I know! £1.85 - I was ripped off :lol:

 

[BigYin]

Having trawled through all that, and because of the incredibly low dilutions involved in a typical beer brewers use of the product, I personally see no reason not to use it :drink:

 

[luckyeddie]

Having trawled through all that, and because of the incredibly low dilutions involved in a typical beer brewers use of the product, I personally see no reason not to use it :drink:

Me neither.

 

[snail59]

I have just recieved my first bottle of this and also see no reason not to use it.

 

[Aleman]

Here are the ingredients:
povidone (Polyvinylpyrrolidone or PVP)- the PVP is a wetting/film agent which is safe as it should just pass through your body.

The polymer PVP was used as a blood plasma expander for trauma victims after the first half of the 20th century.

It is used as a binder in many pharmaceutical tablets; it simply passes through the body when taken orally. However, autopsies have found that crospovidone does contribute to pulmonary vascular injury in substance abusers who have injected pharmaceutical tablets intended for oral consumption. The long-term effects of crospovidone within the lung are unknown. It is used in pleurodesis (fusion of the pleura because of incessant pleural effusions). For this purpose, povidone iodine is equally effective and safe as talc, and may be preferred because of easy availability and low cost.

As a food additive, PVP is a stabilizer and has E number E1201. PVPP is E1202. It is also used in the wine industry as a fining agent for white wine. Other references state that polyvinyl pyrrolidone and its derivatives are fully from mineral synthetic[10] origin. Therefore, its use in the production should not be a problem for vegans.
It's also a very effective fining agent for Tannins, tannoids and other chill haze causing compounds

Iodine 10% w/w (1% available iodine)

The Good Bit

Alkyl Phenol Ether Sulphate (Ammonium salt) - Surfactants (detergent/wetting agent)

Yep also commonly found in soaps shower gels etc

Glycerin BP - moisturiser

In foods and beverages, glycerol serves as a humectant, solvent, and sweetener, and may help preserve foods. It is also used as filler in commercially prepared low-fat foods (e.g., cookies), and as a thickening agent in liqueurs. Glycerol and water are used to preserve certain types of leaves. As a sugar substitute, it has approximately 27 calories per teaspoon and is 60% as sweet as sucrose. Although it has about the same food energy as table sugar, it does not raise blood sugar levels, nor does it feed the bacteria that form plaques and cause dental cavities. As a food additive, glycerol is labeled as E number E422.

Citric acid - acts as a buffer

As a food additive, citric acid is used as a flavoring and preservative in food and beverages, especially soft drinks. Within the European Union it is denoted by E number E330. Citrate salts of various metals are used to deliver those minerals in a biologically available form in many dietary supplements. The buffering properties of citrates are used to control pH in household cleaners and pharmaceuticals. In the United States the purity requirements for citric acid as a food additive are defined by the Food Chemical Codex, which is published by the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP).

Anhydrous Sodium Phosphate - acts as a buffer with the Citric acid, present to form a buffer to maintain a pH of between 3 and 5.5

Also a component of ph 5.2 Buffer for maintaining mash pH. . . .and also used in Coca Cola

Purified Water BP

That damned Dihydrogen Monoxide . . . really nasty stuff

So nothing there then that would really cause concern . . . especially in the dilutions that we are using it at . . . and then left to drip dry and massively diluted in our beer. Although Robert Arguellos article is talking about BTF iodophor, it does give us an idea that we have around 5-10ml of the diluted sample left in a fermenter, which we then add 23L too . . . I cannot be arsed to work out the dilution factors, but it is so low as to be meaningless.

 

[Vossy1]

I use videne, not that that's a disclaimer of any sort :lol:
Having said that, I always rinse my SANITISED equipment with boiling water, not for any good reason, I just prefer not to have more chemicals in my beer **relies on tap water, boiled, being safe :whistle: **
If you choose not to use Videne you could use the Iodophor based dairy sanitisers as Aleman has suggested. I looked into this in some depth a couple of years ago, but due to the minimum order quantities (usually 5ltrs), a few chats with one of the sales reps, and the fact they are base on acidified verions of Videne, I saw no point in changing my existing routine.

Some of the dairy versions are designed to clean "soiled" equipment and also sanitise, 2 for the price of one

 

[Grahame]

Videne's license says not to be taken only because it was developed as an external product, not because it's terribly toxic. It's akin to a drug manufacturer putting on their injectable product not to be used by any other route - purely because they have not tested it and are covering their backs. At the concentrations we use it at, it is fine - we will sooner die of liver failure from all the homebrew we drink :)

Incidentally, I am surprised at the cost people pay here. Videne is £1.50 ish per bottle to trade, some pharmacists are making a tidy profit! I am a pharmacist but work in a hospital and I just buy it from our department at cost.

 

[oldbloke]

I cannot be arsed to work out the dilution factors, but it is so low as to be meaningless.

It might have a homeopathic action, if it's diluted enough.

(ducks, runs)