Very soft water / High Mash PH

[Sunter]

I live in an area with very soft water with very low mineral content. I have had my water analysed by Phoenix Analytical and use the figures in the Graham Wheeler Water Treatment Calculator. The alkalinity is only 20 CaCO3 so there are no recommendations for reducing this further.

I brew mostly pale ales in a Braumeister. I put the water treatment additions directly in the water and treat all 30 litres of water at the same time. I then mash in the Braumeister with around 25 litres of water, adding the remaining 5 litres after the mash has finished. On recent brews my mash PH has been around 5.7-5.8 (on a digital calibrated PH meter, so I know this is accurate). Everything I have read suggests I would have a low mash PH based on my water and I would not need to add any acid as my alkalinity was already quite low. I also checked out Bru'n'water and that also suggested my Mash PH would come out at 5.2. I am a bit lost on why my Mash PH is coming out so high? Does anybody think any of the below will help me get the Mash PH in to a more desirable range:

1. Use CRS/AMS in the mash to bring the PH down. Will this work if the alkalinity in the water is already low?
2. Reduce the volume of water in the mash to 20 litres?
3. Add all of the water treatment additions to the grist to get a higher calcium sulphate level in the mash?

Due to the very low mineral content I am already adding a lot of Gypsum, so am reluctant to keep adding more to bring the mash PH level down in case I start to get a mineral taste in the finished beer.

Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

[aamcle]

Have a read through the water treatment pages at BrewersFriend.com and use the water calculator.

Atb

 

[Sunter]

Thank you, but I have used various water treatment calculators and they all say due to the low alkalinity in my water that no CRS is needed and the mash ph will be in the correct range. In reality this is not the case, so hopefully someone can help identify what I need to do differently.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

May I just ask at what time during the mash you are taking your pH reading? Generally it should be about 20mins in - also, do you know the pH of your mash runoff?

 

[Sunter]

The mash ph was taken after around 15-20mins and cooled to room temperature. Unfortunately I have never checked the mash runoff ph.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I‘m afraid I can‘t offer any quick insight as to why your mash pH is remaining stubbornly high in the absence of bicarbonates, and I think you’re wise to be cautious in how much gypsum you add.
Have you considered adding a bit of CRS to your water, maybe at a rate of 0.5ml/litre? It will not only lower the pH but also contribute a bit of sulphate and chloride.
Another option would be to use a bit of acid malt, which works pretty well.

 

[Sunter]

Yes I think I will try CRS in my next brew and see if that brings the levels to a more desirable level. Thank you

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I think if I was in your shoes, I would do a couple of small scale tests with maybe a litre of water and 350g of malt in a pan on the hob, to see how it might work out

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

I live in an area with very soft water with very low mineral content. I have had my water analysed by Phoenix Analytical and use the figures in the Graham Wheeler Water Treatment Calculator. The alkalinity is only 20 CaCO3 so there are no recommendations for reducing this further.

I brew mostly pale ales in a Braumeister. I put the water treatment additions directly in the water and treat all 30 litres of water at the same time. I then mash in the Braumeister with around 25 litres of water, adding the remaining 5 litres after the mash has finished. On recent brews my mash PH has been around 5.7-5.8 (on a digital calibrated PH meter, so I know this is accurate). Everything I have read suggests I would have a low mash PH based on my water and I would not need to add any acid as my alkalinity was already quite low. I also checked out Bru'n'water and that also suggested my Mash PH would come out at 5.2. I am a bit lost on why my Mash PH is coming out so high? Does anybody think any of the below will help me get the Mash PH in to a more desirable range:

1. Use CRS/AMS in the mash to bring the PH down. Will this work if the alkalinity in the water is already low?
2. Reduce the volume of water in the mash to 20 litres?
3. Add all of the water treatment additions to the grist to get a higher calcium sulphate level in the mash?

Due to the very low mineral content I am already adding a lot of Gypsum, so am reluctant to keep adding more to bring the mash PH level down in case I start to get a mineral taste in the finished beer.

Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Malt is alkalinity positive, if the pH you are detecting is 5.7 then you will need to add acid to bring it down, that is if at the 5.7 figure you have added some gypsum and chloride adding to much of these, gypsum especially will not result in a good outcome. Use some phosphoric or lactic acid, or as suggested some acid malt. I wouldn't be adding more CRS.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Use some phosphoric or lactic acid, or as suggested some acid malt. I wouldn't be adding more CRS.

Why not CRS? It’s just a mixture of hydrochloric and sulphuric acid

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

Why not CRS? It’s just a mixture of hydrochloric and sulphuric acid

I have read what Martin Brungard had said about it before, I have used his and Brewers Friend (John Palmers) water treatment calculator. Here he mentions it again. Crs

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I have read what Martin Brungard had said about it before, I have used his and Brewers Friend (John Palmers) water treatment calculator. Here he mentions it again. Crs

Heh he - well I have an immense amount of respect for Martin Brungard as a water chemist, but when he says "I've been visiting the UK homebrew sites for a few months now. I've come to the realization that CRS is quite detrimental to many brewers results." I think rather a lot of UK brewers would chuckle.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I live in an area with very soft water with very low mineral content. I have had my water analysed by Phoenix Analytical and use the figures in the Graham Wheeler Water Treatment Calculator. The alkalinity is only 20 CaCO3 so there are no recommendations for reducing this further.

I brew mostly pale ales in a Braumeister. I put the water treatment additions directly in the water and treat all 30 litres of water at the same time. I then mash in the Braumeister with around 25 litres of water, adding the remaining 5 litres after the mash has finished. On recent brews my mash PH has been around 5.7-5.8 (on a digital calibrated PH meter, so I know this is accurate). Everything I have read suggests I would have a low mash PH based on my water and I would not need to add any acid as my alkalinity was already quite low. I also checked out Bru'n'water and that also suggested my Mash PH would come out at 5.2. I am a bit lost on why my Mash PH is coming out so high? Does anybody think any of the below will help me get the Mash PH in to a more desirable range:

1. Use CRS/AMS in the mash to bring the PH down. Will this work if the alkalinity in the water is already low?
2. Reduce the volume of water in the mash to 20 litres?
3. Add all of the water treatment additions to the grist to get a higher calcium sulphate level in the mash?

Due to the very low mineral content I am already adding a lot of Gypsum, so am reluctant to keep adding more to bring the mash PH level down in case I start to get a mineral taste in the finished beer.

Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

I read this today and was reminded of your thread:

Mash pH is another factor that affects the activity of the various enzymes. A mash carried out using distilled water ends up with a pH in the region of 5.8 to 6.0. The presence of enough calcium ions in the water causes the mash pH to drop down into the 5.5 to 5.6 range. Additional calcium ions can drive the pH down to 5.2, where we get within optimal conditions for the two main mash enzymes. pH in the optimal range also helps to insulate the enzyme a little from the effects of temperature.​

​

Just on the off chance, could your mash be a low in calcium? I recall seeing advice that says 50-100ppm is the minimum level needed for good brewing water.

 

[Braufather]

Mash PH would come out at 5.2. I am a bit lost on why my Mash PH is coming out so high?

I too use a brauneister and have the very same problem. I used brewers friend and whilst the other numbers like gravity etc are spot on once it’s soaked in, PH is well out. Essentially for the last few years I just takes notes, make adjustments and go by experience and pretty much get it bang on

However my last brew but one I used RO water for the first time so used a calculator to work out editions to 5.3. In reality Ended up with a ph on 4.9.Haven’t tried it yet, hope it ok.

using that as a benchmark I made a few adjustments and hit 5.2 on the next RO brew.

seems a coincidence that the two of us posting about ph calculators are using a BM?

 

[Sunter]

I do not think it is a coincidence we both have the same issue with a Braumeister. From what I have now been told it is partly due to the Braumeister mash volumes being much higher than traditional brewing systems. The grain does not have the ability to reduce the mash ph by as much as the software is expecting.

I plan to add all my water treatment to the mash, instead of the total water volume. Reduce the mash water volume by a few litres, and then use CRS to get the ph in the correct range. I will update once I have done another brew.

 

[Braufather]

Not sure as you enter the volume into the calculator (23 for me, 25 for you). Reading you post again my issue is in the other direction. I’m undershooting! Let me know how you get on. Trial and error has got me where I need to be now but will be interested in how get on.

if you are brewing pale ales with minimal or no crystal darker malts I’ve found you will still need to add some calcium. I use to use Tesco’s ashbec which is similar to your profile but would still have to add some gypsum or calcium chloride to hit PH.

Most of my brews are pale ales IPA etc so I can check my notes as we will have used similar malts bills I reckon. And I always note the additions and ph. I’ve done at least 80 brews in mine now

Post your recent grain bills and mash schedules etc and I’ll see if we can compare

 

[DocAnna]

Hi @Sunter, I've been having similar problems in the last few brews with a pH higher than calculated despite the water here having next to no ions in it. I do add salts to reach adequate calcium levels but I still suspect it is a lack of calcium that is the root of the problem. I also consistently use the Crafty Maltsters base grains and I'm beginning to suspect that they are more alkaline than expected as there seem few other possible causes. I am now routinely adding some acidulated malt and sometimes some lactic acid as well. I'm not sure what base grain you are using but it might be worth trying a different supplier too.

 

[F00b4r]

You might want to check out the op’s identically named thread on Jim’s, as I cannot be bothered to rehash it all, it explains exactly what the issue is. You can either target a lower alkalinity than usual or take notes and adjust next time.