Unpredictable efficiency on all-in-one system

[RoomWithABrew]

Since moving up to the Guten I have started using a condenser as well. This means much less boil off loss so could also be a factor.
I think your efficiency would go through the roof if you put the grains in a press post mash and then sparged and repeated. But not practical and might cause other issues, however some commercial breweries do have presses built in.
When I put the malt pipe over a bucket and let it drain during the boil I find the runoff can be 1020 or more which I find frustrating. The grains at the bottom taste sweet as well.
Never found the time to sparge let it drain, dig the well washed top grains out and then sparge what's left and repeat if necessary. Probably would increase extraction but would be a hassle.

 

[moto748]

Efficiency can be a frustrating thing. I've suffered a loss of efficiency lately, but I doubt if in my case any of the partial explanations upthread are applicable, but because I haven't really changes my techniques, and in fact would say that that I am considerably more careful and accurate in my work now than previously. So I'm at a bit of a loss. I've discounted obvious things like my hydrometer has somehow gone haywire (It hasn't), so I dunno. In which case, the options are, accept a smaller volume in the FV, or up the quantity of base malt a bit for the given quantity of water in the recipe, or have weaker beer and add a small amount of DME or sugar prior to pitching to make up. In my mind, the first two are the best options. But at the end of the day, if you're still producing decent beer, I don't agonise too much.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I think the issue is about trying to make High ABV beers in volume from the 35 litre all in one.
More than 5.5kg and things start to get worse not better.
Parti gyle and a reiterated mash using the gyled liquid as the mash liquid will bump things up but it takes more time.
I have done a second sparge of the grains over a bucket and then used that for the next mash. Tried to put the most efficient grain mass for the first go and so the second post gyle sparge was a smaller grain bill.

 

[Zorro]

It's an interesting read this, I currently have a 35 litre brewzilla on order. Main reason was I was worried about customer service from hopcat.

However now I'm thinking 45l will give me more capacity for larger grain bills.

Im looking at 23l batches

Do I stick or twist?

 

[foxy]

It's an interesting read this, I currently have a 35 litre brewzilla on order. Main reason was I was worried about customer service from hopcat.

However now I'm thinking 45l will give me more capacity for larger grain bills.

Im looking at 23l batches

Do I stick or twist?

Depends how you are going to brew, as I said I 'no sparge' but I have a 40. 50 and 70 litre. You can easily do a 23 litre brew with a minimum sparge. The 50 litre is off the menu here, and quite rightly. It is neither here nor there. A 70 litre will cost more but you will be able to do double batches come brew day in the same time as a single batch.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@Zorro
I was always aiming to max out my brews in the robobrew, because I had the fermentasaurus and it had ( to full ) capacity of 34 litres. I couldn't bear to only put 23 litres or less in so made sure the robobrew was near the brim and that way with top ups from the malt pipe draining during the boil I could get about 27 to 28 litres of beer. But it was a struggle and certainly not a 28 litre of 6.5 % super hoppy beer.
You should be absolutely spot on with 23 litre batches and I think that's what it was designed for. If you want 23 litres of Harveys elizabethan ale then you are going to need to parti gyle and reiterate a mash. But you probably aren't going to brew that kind of stuff every week. So it's only a longer brewday every now and then.
I couldn't believe how easy it made a good all grain beer, having come from a 20 year hiatus using tins of syrup and now thinking back pretty average beer.
It was a great entry point and if the bigger one hadn't come along at a bargain price I'd still be using it. Also if the grainfather was the only option I'm not sure I'd have dived into the homebrew all grain or any homebrewing.

 

[Zorro]

Depends how you are going to brew, as I said I 'no sparge' but I have a 40. 50 and 70 litre. You can easily do a 23 litre brew with a minimum sparge. The 50 litre is off the menu here, and quite rightly. It is neither here nor there. A 70 litre will cost more but you will be able to do double batches come brew day in the same time as a single batch.

Space is my issue, only room for a small fermentation fridge. So I'm not fussed about big batches.

I thinking with a sparge. From what I have seen 2.7l to 3l per kg for grain initially.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@Zorro I sparged all of mine and aimed for about 3 l / kg. Roughly 5 kg of grain 17 litres of liquor, lose about 5 litres in the grain leaves 12 litres and then about 16 to 18 litres of sparge. Watch it like a hawk during the early boil or just keep a couple of litres back that drain out into a bucket ( I just used to stand the malt pipe in the old plastic fermenter bucket and tip the drainings in at some stage during the boil.

 

[cushyno]

@dannythemanny I may not have an all-in-one though can see parallels in my process and equipment that makes a difference to efficiency. These are the biggest factors:

• Mill/crush your own grain
• Stir, stir and stir again.
• Squeeze the bag / sparge plate, or some way to help the extraction of liquid (and sugars) from the grain.

Grain crush and flow seems important,

The main benefit I see in having a thinner mash is to wash out the sugars because they're still trapped in the grains. In fact everything else is geared towards extraction - smaller and consistent grain crush promotes the movement of sugars from the grains to the wort, stirring likewise helps wash the grains and promote sugar extraction.

If you have a constant pumped flow through the mash it will be less important to stir, but movement and mixing of the least dense with the most dense wort to is important to promote extraction. Pockets of dense wort in the mash will suffer lower extraction. Clumps of sticky grain or dough balls won't allow flow through so you need to break them up by stirring.

But I think I might be missing something... I do buy grain pre-crushed, so maybe I should buy a mill and go from there...? But these discrepancies are present between the different grain bills using grain from the same bag

I'm wondering whether it's wort investing in a mill just to be able to eliminate crush as a factor

Pre-crushed grain may have settled in the bag, so efficiency is unpredictable from one batch to the next. You won't get that problem milling your own.

Do it! I bought one of the cheap Corona style mills over a year ago and it has been the biggest factor in both improving efficiency and improving consistency. Using pre-crushed grain I'd get anywhere from 68%-76%ish. Now I'm consistently at 79%.
What's interesting is that even pre-crushed grain run back though my cheapo mill also increases efficiency and improves consistency.

pour the grain into the basket and then lower that into the strike water

Isn't this the equivalent of under-letting? I've read that under-letting helps reduce dough balls, but you'd have to lower the grain basket really slowly to let the water filter through grain enough to soak the grains without getting dough balls. It should help though.

I press down on the sparge plate before and after sparging

Equivalent to squeezing the bag. It all helps extraction. I imagine it would be difficult to put enough pressure on the grain using a sparge plate, that's a lot of surface area to apply enough pressure on.


Don't give up hope. Try the simple process changes first before resorting to reiterated mashes. Save yourself a lot of hassle by doing the small things that make the biggest difference. I was amazed at the jump in efficiency I got through stirring, even with a simple one stage batch sparge.

If you want to do batch sparge, do a thicker mash around 3L/kg stir every 15 minutes, drain off all the first runnings, squeeze, then batch sparge with plenty of hot water at 75°C for 20-30mins stir every 10 mins. Drain off second runnings and squeeze again. Remove grain from malt pipe, or alternatively pour all wort back through the malt pipe again for a final wash.

 

[Covrich]

I agree with the above I think a big mistake you may be making is putting the grain into a basket and lowering it in.

Hav ethe basket already in your system and dough the grains in properly and stir them well.

I think just dumping the basket in is going to create a large dough ball flapjack which will not be efficient

 

[HarryFlatters]

I do full volume mashes in my Hopcat, slowly add the grain and stir in well, and I recirculate for the whole mash. I tend not to use the top plate so I can stir things a few times during the mash, and I hit my numbers fairly regularly. I also don't bother with a predetermined mash time, I just check with a refractometer until I hit my pre-boil gravity and call it done.

 

[Crappyfish]

I agree with the above I think a big mistake you may be making is putting the grain into a basket and lowering it in.

Hav ethe basket already in your system and dough the grains in properly and stir them well.

I think just dumping the basket in is going to create a large dough ball flapjack which will not be efficient

Think you hit on to something here I always dump the grain into the basket and lower it in always have to spoon the grain around to get the water through. Why haven't I thought of this before.

 

[Covrich]

I do full volume mashes in my Hopcat, slowly add the grain and stir in well, and I recirculate for the whole mash. I tend not to use the top plate so I can stir things a few times during the mash, and I hit my numbers fairly regularly. I also don't bother with a predetermined mash time, I just check with a refractometer until I hit my pre-boil gravity and call it done.

pretty much what I do. although I don't do the last part.. I do not use the top plate and recirc the whole time throughout.

 

[Dazzelknight]

As a Newbie what’s your guys thoughts on “squeezing the bag” or “pushing down on the grill plate”. I’m reading a lot of conflicting things. Some say it’s no problem, others saying it releases unwanted tannings, starches ect.

 

[Crappyfish]

As a Newbie what’s your guys thoughts on “squeezing the bag” or “pushing down on the grill plate”. I’m reading a lot of conflicting things. Some say it’s no problem, others saying it releases unwanted tannings, starches ect.

My brother squeezed the bag really tight and got astringent tastes. We put that down to tannins being squeezed out.

 

[dannythemanny]

I mill my own grain, and it can make some difference not a lot. Check the grain from your supplier who is milling it, it should just be cracked with the husk intact. Also don't worry to much about efficiency figures, I have said it more than once the efficiency percentage isn't what you are shooting for, its a constant result using your method on your equipment.


Depends on the OG I am after, 19 to 21 litres I can get another couple of litres by pouring 5 litres of trub left in the kettle into a 5 litre jug and putting it in the fridge for a while. Let it settle and can get 2 more litres and pour the trub and hop debris away. Sometimes that is included in my total sometime I keep it for starters.

Yeah, I think milling may make a difference. I used to live in the US, which was where I got started brewing, and my efficiency jumped and was much more consistent when I started using just a basic Corona mill. Think I've still got it somewhere so I will try and dig it out to see if it makes any difference.

The volumes are what is really interesting here to me. I think the 35L (40L to the brim) Brauheld Pro that I'm using is limited in large part by the fact that there is quite a lot of dead space around the malt pipe. In my old MLT, I just had a SS braid in the bottom, meaning that the liquor and grist was mixed throughout. So I reckon I am limited to probably 5% ABV max if I use it as intended. However, if I want to make a bigger beer, I reckon I might try 1. milling pre-crushed grain, or at least some of it to see if I get a jump in extraction and 2. putting the false bottom in my HLT with 2 or 3 kg of the grain bill in it and mashing on the same schedule as the bulk of the grain bill. I could then put the sparge water in there to heat up and use the second runnnings to sparge the grain in the malt pipe. Quite keen to try this now, but probably won't get round to it for a little while. I'll update when I do if anyone's interested.

 

[dannythemanny]

I don't know what your capacity is on your m/c but if you want quality try a no sparge, 6,5 kg I can mash into 32 litres strike water, but I set my efficiency at 55% so you can work it out I am only going to get slightly over a 5% ABV beer could go 5.5%. Cutting out the sparge gives a cleaner better tasting beer.

I have tried no sparge a few times. I reckon it maxes out on my system at about 1.036, which made a really nice session IPA. For that, I used 3.85kg and 32L of strike water. I subsequently tried making the same beer with a modification to the grain bill, bringing it up to 4.3kg, and holding back 6L for sparging. This came out at 1.049. That roughly works out at an extra 2 points per kg, I think. I should have kept them to compare side by side!

 

[dannythemanny]

My brother squeezed the bag really tight and got astringent tastes. We put that down to tannins being squeezed out.

I'm relativlely new to squeezing down on the sparge plate, but I've had no astringency from doing it. Maybe this is more of a risk with a finer crush?

 

[foxy]

I'm relativlely new to squeezing down on the sparge plate, but I've had no astringency from doing it. Maybe this is more of a risk with a finer crush?

That was a train of thought with BIABers but was proved to be false squeezing or pressing doesn't extract tannins. Commercial brewers press it under so much pressure the grain which is milled to a fine dust comes out almost dry.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I think the squeezing the grain is a brewers myth, squeeze mine and as @foxy says commercial systems around that produce biscuits of malt after being wrung out.