Amount of strike water in an All In One

[Rodcx500z]

Yep that works, only had 3 years and never knew

 

[Caramel Ox]

Dead space goes back to when wort wasn't recirculated, leaving a volume of liquor under the false bottom. Baron is right the liquor gets recirculated so dead space is no more. Making the calculations should be an individual thing as we all have different methods of doing things that Brewfather can't predict.
I know my measurements. Boil off, loss to grain, and loss to kettle trub and they would all be far different to Brewfather's predictions boil off would be the closest.
Use Brewfather's predictions by all means but make adjustments when you find a discrepancy.
I think a more fluid mash will get a better conversion as it can run easily through the grain bed eliminating hot and cool spots encountered in a thicker mash. But whichever way it will include quite a bit of stirring to get the most out of the grist.

Yes those are your own measurements but you have to enter those into the app it isn’t predicting them for you. Guess, measure or copy another equipment profile then refine after use. What Brewfather is predicting is the total volume you need to start with to end up with your target batch which I find very useful.

 

[foxy]

Yes those are your own measurements but you have to enter those into the app it isn’t predicting them for you. Guess, measure or copy another equipment profile then refine after use. What Brewfather is predicting is the total volume you need to start with to end up with your target batch which I find very useful.

It depends on what the user does. I squeeze my grain so end up with a loss to grain coming close to 500 ml per kg, that was my last one. The trub in the kettle I tip into a jug, let it settle out and my loss to trub is about 2 litres. So my starting volume is far different to the prediction Brewfather gives. My recovery of wort is far greater than what Brewfather predicts.

 

[Weatherman]

Agree with all this. I have recently started doing 4 or 4.5 ltr a kilo and it gives less problems with running the re circ pump. A thicker mash often means I can’t have to pump fully open and its needs constant monitoring.

It also means less to sparge and so that’s quicker too.

 

[Caramel Ox]

It depends on what the user does. I squeeze my grain so end up with a loss to grain coming close to 500 ml per kg, that was my last one. The trub in the kettle I tip into a jug, let it settle out and my loss to trub is about 2 litres. So my starting volume is far different to the prediction Brewfather gives. My recovery of wort is far greater than what Brewfather predicts.

You can set grain absorption rate to 0.5l/kg in the equipment profile, and trub/chiller loss to 2l.

 

[MashBag]

Cheersi will do it

"Cheersi"

Rod, Are you getting down with the kids ?

 

[Aleteamairways]

When I first got my BZ 35 I had a similar question and wasn't on the forum. I put the malt pipe in the BZ and measured water adding until it just showed on the bottom plate of the malt pipe and added this figure to the 3l X 1 kg figure from memory this was about 7l and this worked great and I still used it until I bought a bigger machine. BZ 35l (3.1.1 version) very similar to a Brew Monk I would be surprised if it's dead space was only 4l

 

[foxy]

You can set grain absorption rate to 0.5l/kg in the equipment profile, and trub/chiller loss to 2l.

Maybe you can, but folk go on an app and set the schedule to what is the average forecast by Brewfather. Hence why I said to make adjustments as you go along. I don't use Brewfather I use Brewers Friend but I set my own parameters which Brewers Friend doesn't comprehend. My strike water can't be as high as BF predicts but it works. Setting one's own parameters gives a more precise outcome.

 

[MashBag]

This thread had taken a dark turn, I am expecting "where do I fit the mangle on my new automatic washing machine? " soon.

 

[Rudy]

I calculate my strike water so I get 60% of my boil volume from the mash and batch sparge with the other 40%.

 

[Vinylwasp]

Dead space goes back to when wort wasn't recirculated, leaving a volume of liquor under the false bottom. Baron is right the liquor gets recirculated so dead space is no more.

I think a more fluid mash will get a better conversion as it can run easily through the grain bed eliminating hot and cool spots encountered in a thicker mash. But whichever way it will include quite a bit of stirring to get the most out of the grist.

I think we need to view AIO dead space as the 'volume of water not in contact with the mash', as it's been filtered off the mash by the malt pipe. So while the total volume is correct, the volume that is actually 'the mash' versus the volume that is filtered wort (dead space) is very low. The BrewFather profile for the BrewMonk 30 quotes 6.5l of deadspace so if you're using 15l of strike water and 6.5l of that is sitting in dead space not in contact with the malt, you've only got 8.5l of water mixed with 5l(kg) of grain so it will be thick and porridge like and conversion (mash efficiency) is going to be sub-optimal.

I think you need to carefully measure your dead space (6.5l seems high for a 30l system but then there's all the space below and around the malt pipe to consider) and then bump up your strike water accordingly. And stir like hell.

 

[MashBag]

I personally think completely the opposite.
Ignore the dead space. (it isn't)
Full volume. (so you don't pump porridge)
Stir at dough in and then leave it alone to do the job you bought it for.

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but I really do think there is stratospheric overthinking going on.

I have anyways run my AIO this way and never had issues.

 

[jambop]

I have always used the formula 2.7L x grain mass in kg then add the void or dead volume . I am getting 80+ % mashing every brew in both my S40 and Bz 35L. The Grainfather S40 has about 7L dead volume and the new Bz gen4 35L has only about 2.5L . I think that is one of the reasons I am getting a slightly higher mash efficiency with the Bz as there is about 5L more sparge liquor to sparge the grain bed.

 

[foxy]

I think we need to view AIO dead space as the 'volume of water not in contact with the mash', as it's been filtered off the mash by the malt pipe. So while the total volume is correct, the volume that is actually 'the mash' versus the volume that is filtered wort (dead space) is very low. The BrewFather profile for the BrewMonk 30 quotes 6.5l of deadspace so if you're using 15l of strike water and 6.5l of that is sitting in dead space not in contact with the malt, you've only got 8.5l of water mixed with 5l(kg) of grain so it will be thick and porridge like and conversion (mash efficiency) is going to be sub-optimal.

I think you need to carefully measure your dead space (6.5l seems high for a 30l system but then there's all the space below and around the malt pipe to consider) and then bump up your strike water accordingly. And stir like hell.

If the Brew Monk is the same as the Guten then the capacity is 40 litres. Obviously, the full 40 litres cant be used so a 30-litre boil is probably the safest. Dead space I hate how that term has been applied to liquor under the grain basket is about 7 litres but mine is 8 mm higher than others.
So in terms of strike water the liquor under the GB plus the preferred ratio of grain to liquor. I think many folk go for the traditional British ratio, whereas the German ratio of liquor to grist would be more suitable for a vessel that recirculates the wort. (Braukaiser)

I have always used the formula 2.7L x grain mass in kg then add the void or dead volume . I am getting 80+ % mashing every brew in both my S40 and Bz 35L. The Grainfather S40 has about 7L dead volume and the new Bz gen4 35L has only about 2.5L . I think that is one of the reasons I am getting a slightly higher mash efficiency with the Bz as there is about 5L more sparge liquor to sparge the grain bed.

Swings and roundabouts, more sparge water more dilution, and the chance of washing tannins from the grain. More strike water gives the enzymes room to move. There will always be compromises whichever option is taken up.

 

[jambop]

If the Brew Monk is the same as the Guten then the capacity is 40 litres. Obviously, the full 40 litres cant be used so a 30-litre boil is probably the safest. Dead space I hate how that term has been applied to liquor under the grain basket is about 7 litres but mine is 8 mm higher than others.
So in terms of strike water the liquor under the GB plus the preferred ratio of grain to liquor. I think many folk go for the traditional British ratio, whereas the German ratio of liquor to grist would be more suitable for a vessel that recirculates the wort. (Braukaiser)


Swings and roundabouts, more sparge water more dilution, and the chance of washing tannins from the grain. More strike water gives the enzymes room to move. There will always be compromises whichever option is taken up.

Yes there are more than seven ways to mash a grist Increased volume reduced enzyme concentration though. I always reduce the alkalinity of my sparge liquor a bit and keep a tight control of sparge liquor temperature. I also have a very course crush on my grains I think that also helps keeps tannin leaching to a minimum. I am increasing the gap on my mill for the next brew I make from 1.4mm to 1.6mm to see how flow and efficiency are effected , if at all. If there is little or no change in the efficiency but better flow rate I may go even larger as I think flow rate creates a positive feedback loop by eluting more sugars from the husks while helping temperature control .

 

[The Baron]

Hi Jambop If you read my thread re the Gen4 and wort level rising I have just sifted most of the flour out of my grist so as if it was a larger crush and the brew went as good as expected also temp control on the gen4 was again a different ball game and went very well keeping within 0.5 degree of mash temp all the way through with FULL pump on. I am now going to order a grainmill and mill my own to suit my Gen4 with a larger crush.

 

[jambop]

Hi Jambop If you read my thread re the Gen4 and wort level rising I have just sifted most of the flour out of my grist so as if it was a larger crush and the brew went as good as expected also temp control on the gen4 was again a different ball game and went very well keeping within 0.5 degree of mash temp all the way through with FULL pump on. I am now going to order a grainmill and mill my own to suit my Gen4 with a larger crush.

Hi Baron in all my experience of using these systems grain crush is very important. I do not know how much flour you removed but that does impact final gravity so clearly avoiding flour production during milling is best avoided. I am going to make a statement which may be jumped upon but here goes
You will hear a lot said about the degree of crush affecting the efficiency of the mash eg. fine crush = high efficiency this is a myth. A fine crush only leads to a faster conversion not greater efficiency. In fact a fine crush can with an AIO reduce efficiency because the sugars are difficult to wash from the grain bed and because of poor wort flow temperature is difficult to control . I have mentioned this before but will repeat Timothy Taylors mash their grains with the malt grains only just broken. Now they are professional brewers and have a mashing process to deal with this type of mash but they do it for a reason. The reasons are reduced tannin leaching from over crushed husks and improved sparging of mashed grains. In AIO systems during mashing the grains there is a high degree of osmosis going on during the wort recirculation process drawing sugars from the husks where the starches have been reduced to sugars by the enzyme activity. I always use a 90 min mash period, not because the starches will not be broken down before the say 30-40 mins have elapsed more to allow the wort reciculation to get those sugars out of the mashed husks. My next brew is going to be done with my mill set at 1.6mm I will report my results.

 

[The Baron]

I removed 780g of flour from a 3100g base grainbill and added the same amount of sieved grain back in so for 3100g of sieved grain I got 780g of flour removed.
My result was a 72% BHE(45 min mash) against a previous same grainbill unsifted of 76% BHE but this had to be stirred most of the mash as the pump flow rate caused the level to keep rising and with all the pfaffing it ended up being a longer mash too(this maybe the reason for slightly higher BHE).
I am in the process of getting a mill to mill my own grain to a larger size as you are going to do.
The only downside is I have probably 50kg of pre-milled grain so I am going to try your method of the pipe down the side of the maltpipe mashing and letting it settle before turning the pump on the grainbed until I have used all the pre-crushed up

 

[jambop]

I removed 780g of flour from a 3100g base grainbill and added the same amount of sieved grain back in so for 3100g of sieved grain I got 780g of flour removed.
My result was a 72% BHE(45 min mash) against a previous same grainbill unsifted of 76% BHE but this had to be stirred most of the mash as the pump flow rate caused the level to keep rising and with all the pfaffing it ended up being a longer mash too(this maybe the reason for slightly higher BHE).
I am in the process of getting a mill to mill my own grain to a larger size as you are going to do.
The only downside is I have probably 50kg of pre-milled grain so I am going to try your method of the pipe down the side of the maltpipe mashing and letting it settle before turning the pump on the grainbed until I have used all the pre-crushed up

My BHE has been 76 % for my first use and 78% for the second. I am brewing on Saturday and will be transferring all of the wort by tipping the kettle into the fermenter as I have found next to no floury trub in my kettle so my brewhouse should be at the max .

 

[MashBag]

@jambop
Re: Fine/course crushing.

I like your thinking.
I have a 8hr 20c soak, before temps increase for mash. How would you expect this to impact?