Turbo Cider

[percival]

ta for the thoughts BS, i'm not too keen on scrumpy, prefer my cider sparkling.

tannin, something fruity i read a recipe for had tannin in the ingredients, can't remember what it was so got some anyway just in case.

bottle conditioning ... i'm not looking to condition it really, its just a suitable bottle for a sparkling bevvy and a bottle i'll be sure to use plenty

rocket fuel .... if i don't overdo the sugar then it can't get too strong cos there won't be enough sugar to make 'too much' alcohol, so a lowish OG and ferment all the way then prime bottles for the sparkle. Having said that i am aiming for something strongish, maybe 8-10%. Something like pomagne (who remembers that?)

Yeast ... you suggested champagne or wine yeast on the first page of this thread, hence i got champagne. but thanks for the revised opinion. i may have to delay the TC now while i do some head scratching to get the strength i want with another yeast, cider yeasts go to 8-10% ish???

Kicking up sediment, yep a big consideration. Somewhere on THBF was a thread where various methods were mentioned for dealing with this. The one i'm going for will be dramatic .... prime and cork the bottles, wire down the corks. Store bottles upside down til drinky time (first spring BBQ in the garden). Open bottle upside down to eject yeast with the cork and masterfully 'right' the bottle before it all fertilises the lawn :grin: another reason to use a big bottle!

So all in all this is quite a deviation from what most have done, which isn't too surprising as i'm into brewing wine rather than beer so i'll swing that way if you know what i mean.

But being the TC guru BS i'll take your tip regarding not using champagne yeast if i can get some cider yeast soonish. The other thing is how to avoid making this too thin. Do i need to ensure there is some residual sugar/sweetness (glycerol perhaps?), or add something for body (maybe some grape concentrate?). what do you think?

 

[arturobandini]

Hey Percival.

I've brewed Turbo Cider with wine and ale yeasts and both have ended up quite dry but that's good for me. Being 100% fruit juices not from concentrate i've had no problems with the body of them and haven't used tannin until my latest creation. Turbo Cider , like I posted, is definitely an experimental art in brewing and you should try all different methods to see which suits you best. Bottle condition some like beers, try your crazy upside down thing, whatever works best for you in the end. Using a yeast which forms a stable deposit is key to not having yeasty eruption come drinking time.....and leaving it to drop bright forming as firm a deposit as possible.

 

[BrewStew]

ta for the thoughts BS, i'm not too keen on scrumpy, prefer my cider sparkling.

if you've not got a keg, then you'll have to bottle condition to get the sparkle

tannin, something fruity i read a recipe for had tannin in the ingredients, can't remember what it was so got some anyway just in case.

ok, give it a shot and let us know... the collective brain always beats the singular

bottle conditioning ... i'm not looking to condition it really, its just a suitable bottle for a sparkling bevvy and a bottle i'll be sure to use plenty

you'll want to if you want it sparkling

rocket fuel .... if i don't overdo the sugar then it can't get too strong cos there won't be enough sugar to make 'too much' alcohol, so a lowish OG and ferment all the way then prime bottles for the sparkle. Having said that i am aiming for something strongish, maybe 8-10%. Something like pomagne (who remembers that?)

apple juice is super fermentable... hence the need for campden as it'll easily go beyond the normal attenuation level stated on yeast packets (and is likely to go under 1.000), 8-10% is easily obtainable from a 1.060 gravity juice

Yeast ... you suggested champagne or wine yeast on the first page of this thread, hence i got champagne. but thanks for the revised opinion. i may have to delay the TC now while i do some head scratching to get the strength i want with another yeast, cider yeasts go to 8-10% ish???

did i? :wha: i've only ever used Safale S04 in my TC's... never, ever considered champagne yeast for the reasons i've stood by on thinning of flavour... some other have reported using cider yeast because they dont like the S04 "twang" though

Kicking up sediment, yep a big consideration. Somewhere on THBF was a thread where various methods were mentioned for dealing with this. The one i'm going for will be dramatic .... prime and cork the bottles, wire down the corks. Store bottles upside down til drinky time (first spring BBQ in the garden). Open bottle upside down to eject yeast with the cork and masterfully 'right' the bottle before it all fertilises the lawn :grin: another reason to use a big bottle!

re read that thread, a post today (or yesterday) said they weren't very successful

So all in all this is quite a deviation from what most have done, which isn't too surprising as i'm into brewing wine rather than beer so i'll swing that way if you know what i mean.

it's a great lil number... quick and easy... and by no means am i trying to disuade you from doing it... i just dont want you to be put off if you get problems, cos it really is wonderful stuff

But being the TC guru BS i'll take your tip regarding not using champagne yeast if i can get some cider yeast soonish. The other thing is how to avoid making this too thin. Do i need to ensure there is some residual sugar/sweetness (glycerol perhaps?), or add something for body (maybe some grape concentrate?). what do you think?

my theory (and this could be seriously flawed because i'm no chemist/biologist, but....) has always been that the yeast uses the most easily fermentable stuff first... glucose, sucrose (from standard cane sugar) etc before having a pop at the apple juice which has a few more chemical bonds than plain sugar... my evidence backing this theory is from a few experiments i've tried varying amounts of sugar, from none to 2 kilos, and stop the ferment when it reaches the same ABV to keep the experiments consistent... from those experiments, i've come to realise that more than 1 kilo of sugar in 5 gals of juice is too sweet... less than 1 kilo and the apple aroma and flavour is lost or begins to deminish: but the real trick is, to rack and knock out the yeast when it reaches the desired dry/sweetness level for you tastes... and that i think is the best bit, because people will be able to control and get accustomed to what flavour they want from their TC. i know that i like my TC to start at around the mid 60's and finish about the low teens (just over 6%ABV) and so rack and use campden/sorbate accordingly. you just cant do that with beer or wine... it's aweseome :thumb: but .... and it comes with a BIG but... the problem with this method is bottling... cos you need campden to kill the ferment so it keeps it's flavour, but you need active yeast to create gas and therefore carbonate the cider in the bottle... it's catch 22 and so far no one seems to have found a solution i think it's a method deemed for kegging practices only (

 

[percival]

thanks for that lengthy reply BS

i certainly wont be put off if it doesn't work out, from what i've read here i'm sure its a belter of a drink, hopefully that means there is leeway to experiment and tweak and still maintain a good quality product. I'm not experimenting to try to improve it, simply to make a sparkling variety, with the complications/catch 22 that comes with it. I want a sparkle so i must not kill the yeast ... and thats the starting point (think i was half asleep or something when i mentioned potassium sorbate and campden!). Good to know that an OG of around 1060 should get me plenty of bang for my bucks, i want to make sure that the yeast doesnt die from ABV excess too tho, so i need a high ABV tolerance else i'll have residual sugar and dead yeast and no sparkle potential.

as for conditioning, well i hadn't planned on leaving it any great length of time, just wanted to get a sparkle and a yeast sediment. then drink it as soon as possible after that as the consensus seems to be that fresh is best. is this what you mean also? or would you reckon a lengthy conditioning is needed (like months?)

Thanks also Arturo, its good to know that wine yeasts can make a nice tasting, albeit dry, product. Dryness doesn't bother me. can you remember what yeast you used and what your OG was? And what was the result of using tannin ... an improvement in any way?

it looks like i may not have to have a few goes at this but i'm up for the challenge!

 

[BrewStew]

i just re read back through you posts... i acknowledged your ABV requirement in one part of my reply, but not the other if you're after an 8-10% head banger, then letting it ferment out fully from a mid 60's gravity to under 1.000 (you'll prolly want cider yeast reach 0.990 to be fair with as an ale yeast will most likely kill itself at 1.0000) will get you that target... no campden or anything required... and can be bottled and will condition over two weeks to be a carbonated drink :thumb:

it'll be super dry and thin though *winces*

 

[percival]

sounds good BS, i don't mind dry, tho super dry and thin sounds like it won't be much fun. What would you recommend to counter the thinness? A non fermentable sugar will help to deal with the dryness of course so thinness is my main problem now. Apart from all the fun i'm gonna have opening it :grin: :lol:

 

[BrewStew]

i would love to see how far the cork (and contents) shoot when you open it :lol:

that's the problem... the lower you let it ferment, the dryer it gets. more sugar you add, the thinner it gets, but without sugar, it loses it's apple nose and flavour... it's bugger this stuff. i keep meaning to get some more 3L plastic demi's to experiment with it to find an equilibrium... but it's a matter of time, money and my liver! :lol:

thinness you can only really control by the amount of fermentable sugar typically (unless you stop the yeast short) and type of yeast as you know... but as apple juice is so damned fermentable and has a pretty common SG, the only other way you can control it is water.... which is my next batch of experiments, ie watering it down so the yeast stops by itself before it gets too thin... but i'd imagine it'll lose flavour by doing that, which is why i've left that as my last experiment. it would be nice though to save a few quid on juice and still get a decent pint of TC

 

[BrewStew]

oh, and i recently thought of something i want to try on stabilising the flavour of TC for extended periods too while reading up on wines.

i read that wines keep better and for ALOT longer if their acidity is stronger... I'm beginning to wonder if that practise with wine will work on TC, because i (and some others on here) have noticed that after a month in a keg (not sure on bottles as i've not attempted it for obvious reasons) the flavour starts to changed. then after two months it deteriorates.

so i'm also going to attempt to use tartric acid, powdered citric acid and natural lemon juice at different PH levels to see if it helps keep the TC in tip-top condition for longer :thumb:

 

[arturobandini]

Not tried the latest one with tannin yet. I thought this one would definitely need it as it was made with cheapo Apple Nectar which is not pure apple juice. No preservatives or anything but it does have sugar and water mixed in. I've never added sugar to the Apple Juice as I don't think it's necessary as most apple juice will be something like 1.040? Fermenting down to 0.990 (6.6% ABV) is a possibility so I don't wany anymore bang for my buck than what nature provided. My Apple Nectar had an OG of 1.036 and wine yeast should bring it down to 0.990 on the hydrometer so likely to be pretty good for my needs.

Tannin stops your wines, ciders and meads from tasting too insipid and lifeless. A good teaspoon in low tannin brews should be enough and maybe two in brews without tannin. Grapes are obviously packed with tannins but many other fruits have a good portion of them like Apples and Pears (stairs!) for example. Many homebrewers make up a very strong cup of black tea and add that to the brew as concentrated tea is very strong in tannin.

This is my first time with wine yeast and my previous experiments with ale yeast have been completely without incident and I've never had a cloudy yeasty eruption from any of my bottles providing I chilled them well before hand. If you find a cider is too dry for you then just mix in some fruit juice (erm apple!) when you serve it...simple!

 

[percival]

All these thoughts are really helping, thanks BS and Arturo

I think i'm gonna steer clear of tannin on the first attempt. If i'm very likely to get a very dry cider then adding tannin will probably only accentuate that quality and any gains in other qualities probably won't be worthwhile.

Citric acid tho, with its fruitiness, could help out a little with the thinness problem i'm likely to encounter??? Only adding a small amount for flavour as i don't want to change the pH much in what seems to be a great environment for happy yeast livity!

And of course any mention of fruitiness immediately makes me think of esters and that leads me back to what has become my favourite yeast ... sauternes, as it known to up the ester content.

And i reckon that the plan of adding apple juice at serving time if its way to dry is a good one, thanks Arturo, i don't want to get into using artificial sweeteners.

so it'll be OG around 1060 something, ferment all the way with sauternes and a little added citric acid. Prime and bottle, store upside down, open upside down and .... hopefully i wont have to suck my sparkling cider off the lawn. Unless you have any thoughts on this being a bad plan?

 

[arturobandini]

You can try the upside down trick if you want but i'd also go for plain old upright bottling conditioning and make sure you give one week in the warm and two weeks in the cold. Get it good and chilled before opening and decant into a glass keeping the yeast in the bottle and you should have a nice clear cider. Apple Juice is nice and cheap in small batches so you can trial a few recipes going at the same time. Some like to grate a Bramley apple (cooking apples) into the demijohn which gives tannin, fresh apple flavours, acidity and bitterness. Make sure you don't get any of the core in your demijohn and any raw ingredients are washed with crushed Campden tablet solution to kill wild yeast. The seeds (this goes for all fruit really) will add a harsh and unpalatable bitterness to your drinks especially when shredded/sliced into a must.

 

[percival]

I think i'll probably try both bottle methods given your confidence Arturo. And i should have mentioned that i'll also have a carton of apple juice on hand when i open the first bottle just incase it is too dry and thin.

p.s. I've sent you a private message Arturo, please check your new messages.

 

[BrewStew]

For everybody's info, Yesterday I got a TC on using Tesco's "Apple Nectar"... their cheapest brand of juice.

the colour of it looked paler than any apple juice i've ever seen and the taste was severly lacking... unfortunately i think this will result in a poor quality cider, but we shall see.

I did my usual add a kilo of sugar and it reached 1.060 on the nose. Will rack it at the yeasts normal attenuation level and see how it goes.

I'll report back when it's racked in 7-10 days but i'm not hoping for much.

 

[falafael]

you get what you pay for remember..chuck something into it to spruce it up a bit!

 

[irishbrew]

Hello to all! I just started a batch of TC lastnight...

I used a Lidl apple juice (from concentrate with no adds) worked out at €1/litre
I made up a batch of about 23/24 litres, added 1kg of sugar and some Young's Cider Yeast and threw it up in the attic!
My pre sugar hydo reading was 1.045 and post sugar was 1.062

This is only my second attept in home berwing, I just racked my first ale lastnight while doing up the TC...
I just have a few questions, (sorry if they've been answered already...)

How do I find out the Yeast Attenuation that im using? There was nothing written on the packet...?

I plan on racking into a 23litre keg and add a bit of sugar for carbonation; I also might throw a litre or two into a few bottles to try it out... My quesion here is, is there an ideal way of racking? I have the cambden tabs ready to roll but im not sure how to put them in or how many do I put in?

There doesn't seem to be too much activity at the moment (only about 16hrs into fermentation) but iv read that this is normal...

I want my cider to taste quite appley and also, if possible I would like it fizzy... Is this difficult to achieve?

Anyway, hopefully somebody could shed a little light on the TC racking process for me!

Cheers! :

 

[BrewStew]

How do I find out the Yeast Attenuation that im using? There was nothing written on the packet...?

most yeasts are typically between 70 and 75%. taking an average of 72.5% wont get you far wrong

I plan on racking into a 23litre keg and add a bit of sugar for carbonation; I also might throw a litre or two into a few bottles to try it out... My quesion here is, is there an ideal way of racking? I have the cambden tabs ready to roll but im not sure how to put them in or how many do I put in?

Campden is used at a rate of 1 tablet per gallon. you just crush it with a spoon and stir it in :thumb:

There doesn't seem to be too much activity at the moment (only about 16hrs into fermentation) but iv read that this is normal...

yep, it can sometimes take a while :thumb:

I want my cider to taste quite appley and also, if possible I would like it fizzy... Is this difficult to achieve?

apply flavour is easy enough and what you've done should manage that :thumb: if you've got a way of force cabonating it (which i'm guessing as you've just started out, you've not) it's easy, but natually carbonating is a bit of a catch 22 if you want it to keep it's apple flavour and aroma. i've found letting it ferment out all the way makes it lose this characteristic, but adding campden obviously stalls the yeast, so you may have limited amounts of viable yeast left to ferment out the priming sugars naturally.

we're still trying to find that magic balance where it doesn't fully ferment out (thus keeping the apple nose and taste) but not knocking too much of the yeast down to slow or stop the natual carbonation.

the current batch of TC i've got on at the moment will have an experiment done to it. i plan on bottling 4 bottles, one will not have priming sugar and no campden added, the next will have priming sugar and no campden, then the other two will be the same but with campden... to try to ascertain the best way.

I'll be posting the results here of course :thumb:

 

[irishbrew]

Great stuff, thanks for the advise!

 

[irishbrew]

Just a little update...

Check the TC today and she has started to bubble like mad...
I have attached a couple of pics to show you guys.

The second pic includes the ale I racked on Thursday.

Looking forward to having a taste of the TC in a few days!

 

[BrewStew]

looking good!

 

[irishbrew]

So still looking good and it really smells as if something is happening!

I do have a question though; when I was taking my second Hydro reading (which was 1042) I noticed
there were a lot of bubbles, almost like a fizz. From what I'v read this is normal. But... does this fizz not give a
slightly false hydro reading from the fizz/bubbles pushing the hydrometer upwards?

So far my hydro went from 1062 to 1042 which works out at 2.7% according to the calculator.
This is after about 55 hrs or so at 20 deg/C.

So any ideas about the fizzy hydro reading?

Thanks!