Too late to add more sugar?

[jumfish]

Hi,

I brewed an IPA that has conditioned nicely but I didn't prime it with enough sugar. Its been in the keg for several weeks now. This might sound like a daft question but can I add a bit more sugar now to increase the carbonation or has the yeast all died off?

Thanks

 

[rpt]

Is the problem that it isn't fizzy enough? If so, are you sure the keg isn't leaking? And did you leave the keg in the warm long enough for it to carbonate? Where has it been for the several weeks?

 

[andyakameatloaf]

I would really really really not recommend trying this, purely because there is no way to tell whether the yeast is active or not until you have opened the barrel, by which point you will release all of the built up pressure and carbonation and if the yeast is dead, you're back at square one, and i would imagine attempting to referment it would be disastrous.

It is quite possible that the yeast is still active, but bear in mind that with a barrel, pressure is built up by the production of c02 from the yeast. It is this that helps to force your beer from your barrel at something more than a meager trickle. Opening it removes it all.

what cap do you have on your barrel? does it have a brass valve on the top? If so, you can force carbonate it by injecting C02 into it.

 

[jumfish]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that it is a King Keg with a pin valve lid, so I can increase the pressure again.

As far leaks and temperature, it seems pretty air tight and it was kept around 17c which has been ok in the past. I'm pretty sure I just added too little sugar.

I tried adding extra gas in an attempt to gently force carbonate but the valve on the top seems to have a 'safe' limit; I read somewhere it's about 10psi.

hmm, maybe i should just enjoy my slightly flat beer as it is. Shame, cos it tastes great!

 

[andyakameatloaf]

Yeah, if it's hissing or kicking back then you might be stuck mate.
How much priming solution did you use and what was it? (IE maltodextrin, DME, etc)
Also, what was your brewlength?

 

[rpt]

I didn't think it was possible to force carbonate in a plastic barrel. I only bottle so don't know for sure.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

Sorry, that was misleading. You cant force carbonate it in the same way that you can with a gas inlet cornie, but you can re-max the c02 pressure which will have a definite effect on beer head, if only temporarily.

 

[jumfish]

Cheers guys,

I added 30g of granulated sugar (with a wee bit of water) to a 23 litre batch. In retrospect i don't know why I didn't add more at the time.

Its a hoppy american IPA and I just think it would be better if it was fizzier.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

For something like an IPA or APA i wouldn't use granulated sugar. I would use brewing sugar (maltodextrin) or, ideally, light malt extract.
Also, 30g is not really enough to give you decent carbonation, I'm afraid. I would say that this is certainly the problem you have here.

To give you some guage, my last brew was an Aussie pale ale, which shares similarities with an IPA, especially in carbonation, and I primed with 92g of Brew Enhancer for 19litres. there are calculators available on the net to give you a decent idea of how much of your priming solution to use.

 

[RobWalker]

you need about 80g sugar in a keg. give it a shake and it should reprime fine.

if it's kept warm it won't carbonate much, just pressurize. you need to put it in the warm for a week, then into the cool (5-8 degrees maybe?) until it's fizzy.

 

[jumfish]

Thanks Rob. Sounds worth a try! I'll write everything down in future... and avoid doing these things when enjoying previous brews!

So Andy, light DME is best for a pale ale. What about other styles of beer? Is regular sugar ever OK?

 

[andyakameatloaf]

regular sugar should really be avoided where possible, EDIT: for priming and in the wort itself//. it contains 2 kinds of chemical sugars that are bound together, which makes it harder for the yeast to break up and eat. Maltodextrin is a simple sugar that the yeast wont have to break down to eat. Also regular sugar will add nothing but alcohol to your brew, whereas DME, being ground malted barley, will add body, flavour, head retention and alcohol.

There are a few exceptions. I know a few stout recipes call for table sugar or demerera sugar and things like that to be added to the wort.
It's all fermentable, but to get the best possible out of it, i'd recommend using DME wherever possible.

 

[jumfish]

Thanks for the advice. I'll pick some up next time I'm at my LHBS.

 

[rpt]

regular sugar should really be avoided where possible, EDIT: for priming and in the wort itself//. it contains 2 kinds of chemical sugars that are bound together, which makes it harder for the yeast to break up and eat. Maltodextrin is a simple sugar that the yeast wont have to break down to eat.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Maltodextrin is an oligosaccharide and is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long. You may actually mean maltose which is a disaccharide composed of two units of glucose. Regular sugar is sucrose which is also a disaccharide but composed of glucose and fructose. So sucrose is no harder to break down than these malt sugars.

Also regular sugar will add nothing but alcohol to your brew, whereas DME, being ground malted barley, will add body, flavour, head retention and alcohol.

This is certainly true but in small quantities (e.g. for priming) it will have no detrimental effect.

I use sucrose for priming as it's cheap. I can see no advantage in using expensive DME.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

regular sugar should really be avoided where possible, EDIT: for priming and in the wort itself//. it contains 2 kinds of chemical sugars that are bound together, which makes it harder for the yeast to break up and eat. Maltodextrin is a simple sugar that the yeast wont have to break down to eat.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Maltodextrin is an oligosaccharide and is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long. You may actually mean maltose which is a disaccharide composed of two units of glucose. Regular sugar is sucrose which is also a disaccharide but composed of glucose and fructose. So sucrose is no harder to break down than these malt sugars.

strange, i was under the impression that sucrose, as a disaccharide would be by definition harder for the yeast to consume than a monosaccharide...
An oligosaccharide such as Maltodextrin is a chemical polymer made of monosaccharides, whereas a disaccharide such as sucrose is a different form of carbohydrate entirely, composed of chemically bound monosaccharides (in this case fructose and sucrose).
Is it not then easier for yeast cells to consume monosaccharides than disaccharides?

andyakameatloaf wrote:
Also regular sugar will add nothing but alcohol to your brew, whereas DME, being ground malted barley, will add body, flavour, head retention and alcohol.
This is certainly true but in small quantities (e.g. for priming) it will have no detrimental effect.

I use sucrose for priming as it's cheap. I can see no advantage in using expensive DME.

Perhaps the difference is minimal and superfluous for cost, but at my LHBS a bag of maltodextrin is only £2 cheaper than a bag of DME, and it can't hurt. I don't like the idea of adding anything to my brew that doesn't need to be there, and the potential benefits of DME over maltodextrin in terms of head retention, body and flavour outweigh the extra £2. plus it also means you have DME lying around for future brews, rather than maltodextrin.

 

[jumfish]

So does that mean when using table sugar you might end up tasting the fructose or whatever it breaks down to?

Also, why not use glucose powder? I'm not rushing out to do this I'm just curious... my curiosity couldn't even wait until I hit submit... brewing sugar IS glucose.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

So does that mean when using table sugar you might end up tasting the fructose or whatever it breaks down to?

Also, why not use glucose powder? I'm not rushing out to do this I'm just curious... my curiosity couldn't even wait until I hit submit... brewing sugar IS glucose.

you might not necessarily be able to taste it, but i would certainly say that using maltodextrin or DME will give you a cleaner fermentation. The numerous posts on this forum certainly attribute to that if nothing else.
I thought the case was that maltodextrin was easier for the yeast to digest than table sugar, hence the advantage in using it. rpt seems to disagree. I'm not 100% certain either way, but (whatever the reason) it is still well documented that maltodextrin is advisable over table sugar

 

[RobWalker]

White sugar is fine man. 80g in 5 gallons isn't going to upset it much at all. plus dme will add a little sediment...If you want to better your brewing try treating the water, getting some temperature control and buy some specialist yeast...

 

[rpt]

According to Wikipedia (so it must be true)

Maltodextrin is sometimes used in beer brewing to increase the specific gravity of the final product.[4] This improves the mouthfeel of the beer, increases head retention and reduces the dryness of the drink. Maltodextrin has no flavor and is not fermented by the yeast, so does not increase the alcohol content of the brew

 

[andyakameatloaf]

According to Wikipedia (so it must be true)

Maltodextrin is sometimes used in beer brewing to increase the specific gravity of the final product.[4] This improves the mouthfeel of the beer, increases head retention and reduces the dryness of the drink. Maltodextrin has no flavor and is not fermented by the yeast, so does not increase the alcohol content of the brew

after being unable to decide whether or not you were joking, a quick google tells me that when i say "maltodextrin" referring to brewing sugar, what i am infact meaning is dextrose haha
I knew there was a dex in there somewhere

EDIT: ANDD that's even after jumfish pointed out that error... oh dear... deffo bed time for me I think...