Tonight's election programming

[Brew_DD2]

Unfortunately, the actual lived experience of the parts of my family that live in various parts of Scotland is more akin the anti-English ethnic nationalism, I'm afraid, but I suppose every barrel has its own bad apples.

I speak with an English accent having spent a significant proportion of my childhood in England. I have never encountered racism up here. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the whole independence project is predicated on being outward looking and welcoming to immigration. The same cannot be said of nationalist movements in England (and elsewhere), whose whole MO is England for the English.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I believe the UK will leave the EU together with a few weird rules being applied to NI, because of the border with EIRE. The SNP aren't really going to avoid Scotland leaving the EU as its place in the EU is under UK membership. I Believe Terry M's point about it being the best opportunity for the SNP is correct.

I would argue that now more than ever we need to stick together as we are leaving a large trading block we shouldn't break up further until we give the new order a try.

So wait and see if the doom and gloom of leaving the EU materialises first. Then Scotland can decide if it wants independence due to the new situation, and if it votes for it then it can apply to join the EU as Scotland. This would I beleive be better for our scottish friends as they get to see what actually pans out before they commit to leaving the UK?

 

[marshbrewer]

The electorate has voted overwhelmingly for the SNP ever since.

45% at the recent election, which is about the same % whom voted for independence during indyref.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the whole independence project is predicated on being outward looking and welcoming to immigration.

One of the most blatent episodes of anti English racism my Scottish sister (English born, has lived in the Hebrides for most of her life, speaks with a Scottish accent) encountered was whilst she was giving a lift to someone very high up in the Nationalist movement who may or may not soon be residing at Her Majesty's pleasure. So I'm not sure I would agree with your analysis. Ultimately, however, as I have said, it's none of my business. Eventually, you guys will have another vote and what will be will be.

 

[Brew_DD2]

45% at the recent election, which is about the same % whom voted for independence during indyref.

And the Conservatives, in 2nd, picked up 25% of the vote. That's a landslide no matter which way you look at it.

The vote Conservative's UK-wide vote share is lower than the SNP's, but you would never argue that they don't have a mandate to govern. Rightly or wrongly, fptp makes voter share largely irrelevant. As far as I'm aware, it is incredibly rare for any party to gain more than 50% of the vote.

 

[marshbrewer]

And the Conservatives, in 2nd, picked up 25% of the vote. That's a landslide no matter which way you look at it.

Oh, don't misunderstand me mate, I wasn't at all questioning the SNP's right to govern. They won fair and square under fptp and also the Scottish Parliament elections. I'm just saying that I not totally convinced that would transform into a majority for independence in a plebiscite given the overall% share of the vote they received.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Oh, don't misunderstand me mate, I wasn't at all questioning the SNP's right to govern. They won fair and square under fptp and also the Scottish Parliament elections. I'm just saying that I not totally convinced that would transform into a majority for independence in a plebiscite given the overall% share of the vote they received.

I don't disagree, but surely they have the mandate to ask the question. It's not like they are claiming they have the mandate to unilaterally withdraw from the Union, which is essentially what the Tory govt. did post-Brexit vote.

 

[terrym]

I think you may have that the wrong way round, i wish we had the same as Scotland - no tuition fees, no prescription charges, no dentistry charges, free care for the elderly, free hospital parking, frozen council tax (the list is probably longer)

It makes you wonder where the money comes from to support these free services, just like Wales where typically prescriptions are also free. Could it be that the UK government is providing the funds via the money that these National Assemblies receive from the Treasury. So in a round about way the 'English' who receive non of these perks are funding the free services in the other countries in the Union unless of course the 'English' get more of other things, but non of which is immediately evident to me. Anyone?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It makes you wonder where the money comes from

A very good point Terry.

 

[simon12]

Just a thought I have not thought through, with the political landscape and opinions changing maybe Scotland should have a leave vote every 2-3 years and nothing changes until they get the same result 3 years running if its leave they leave if its remain they don't vote again for at least a decade and if theres 2 leave votes in a row they shart negotiating how it will work ahead of what could be a final vote. And maybe with hind site brexit could have been handled this way.

 

[Justin Dean]

Ban this thread. We are all friends here. Respect each other despite this and stay friends. Banter is fine but friends do not insult each other.

 

[terrym]

Ban this thread. We are all friends here. Respect each other despite this and stay friends. Banter is fine but friends do not insult each other.

In my view this thread has, in the main, been conducted in a very civil manner, in spite of a divergence of views. If you don't like it just don't participate. That's what I have done in the past (perhaps before you joined) when views expressed were far more extreme and members did in fact trade insults. And certainly one or two members have been banned for being out of order. Although sometimes I don't always see eye to eye with how the Forum moderators operate, they do in fact do a good job overall and generally nowadays keep things under control.

 

[Brew_DD2]

A very good point Terry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

It's an older article, but it spells it out pretty clearly.

We are not subsidised by English taxpayers, contrary to what appears to be popular opinion. Scottish Oil and Gas accounts for huge tax receipts, much in the same way financial services does in London.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Ban this thread. We are all friends here. Respect each other despite this and stay friends. Banter is fine but friends do not insult each other.

We only close or remove threads if they get so far out of hand (forum rules being broken) that deleting the odd post will not get it back on track this doesn't happen often.

And certainly one or two members have been banned for being out of order.

Terry is right, and for those that haven't been here long - we generally remove a members permission to post in the snug leaving them to post in the rest of the forum (i.e Gunge) but occasionally a member leaves us no choice and is banned from the whole forum, i am pleased to say its been a long time since we have had to do that.

 

[terrym]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

It's an older article, but it spells it out pretty clearly.

We are not subsidised by English taxpayers, contrary to what appears to be popular opinion. Scottish Oil and Gas accounts for huge tax receipts, much in the same way financial services does in London.

Thanks for that.
Should Scotland leave the Union I hope it has the ability to slowly diversify away from a hydrocarbon based economy as has Norway, given dwindling reservoirs and of course environmental pressures which are much more in the public eye than even only 5 years ago..

 

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks for that.
Should Scotland leave the Union I hope it has the ability to slowly diversify away from a hydrocarbon based economy as has Norway, given dwindling reservoirs and of course environmental pressures which are much more in the public eye than even only 5 years ago..

We already have. Scotland's renewables sector is enormous.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks for that.
Should Scotland leave the Union I hope it has the ability to slowly diversify away from a hydrocarbon based economy as has Norway, given dwindling reservoirs and of course environmental pressures which are much more in the public eye than even only 5 years ago..

John McDonnell's right. Climate change is an existential threat and we Brits have been distracted for far too long on a more immediate issue. I hope we can all pull together for once and transcend party lines.
Not that optimistic, though.

 

[Rodcx500z]

If they leave will I need a passport and funny money, I love Scotland i really do

 

[Brew_DD2]

If they leave will I need a passport and funny money, I love Scotland i really do

Would seem only fair given how Sterling minted in Scotland is routinely refused south of the border. Passport? Almost certainly not.

 

[the_quick]

I think Scotland would do quite well on its own. European small countries do.

Going back to main topic with election, I'm really worried about raise in xenophobia, BJ said EU nationals who made Britain their home have treated the UK like “their own” country for too long - which basically says you guys go home. Remember those idiots on the street saying same things to foreigners just after referendum?

 

[Brianbrewed]

I believe the UK will leave the EU together with a few weird rules being applied to NI, because of the border with EIRE.

Those 'few weird rules' are a customs border between Northern Ireland & the rest of the UK. That would mean a defacto united Ireland.
The Unionist community in Northern Ireland would feel betrayed & abandoned if this were to happen. God knows where that could lead.

How rarely the Good Friday agreement or the Irish Border was mentioned or understood by the Tories is very worrying.

The Conservative party seems to be morphing into a English Nationalist party with little to no interest in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

Boris Johnson seemingly wants to be a populist leader.
If this is true he will attack the BBC & the civil service, any source of opposition to his version of the truth.

I hope I'm wrong, but I am quite worried.