Tonight's election programming

[marshbrewer]

dont think that's the case at all. I suspect if you asked the average Englishman or woman (whoever they are nowadays) whether it mattered much to them whether the Scots left the Union or not, most probably couldn't care less whether they stayed or left.

This. As I have said above, if I were a Scott I'd be torn, but as I'm not, I couldn't give a monkeys, and as long as the referendum is held legally, under fair terms (which, frankly, it would be) I'd say fill ya boots.

I'm sure an independent Scotland could be a prosperous place. Especially, if after gaining independence, it ditched the bigots that are the SNP.

 

[samale]

I dont think that's the case at all. I suspect if you asked the average Englishman or woman (whoever they are nowadays) whether it mattered much to them whether the Scots left the Union or not, most probably couldn't care less whether they stayed or left. However the thing that gets many folks a bit fed up is the carping on about Independence Referenda. We only had one in 2014 and that was supposed to be it for a generation or whatever. Now the SNP want another, saying the goalposts have moved. What will happen if they get one and they lose, and keep losing. IndyRef3? IndyRef4? until they wear people down?

Brexit has changed a lot. Scotland and northern Ireland both voted to remain.

 

[marshbrewer]

Brexit has changed a lot. Scotland and northern Ireland both voted to remain.

Technically incorrect - Scotland voted against independence in 2014 and therefore for all non devolved matters to be decided on a UK national level. Which they were.

 

[samale]

Technically incorrect - Scotland voted against independence in 2014 and therefore for all non devolved matters to be decided on a UK national level. Which they were.

Call it what you like but they voted remain with Brexit. And the big draw for them to remain in the UK was that they would be part of the EU when the independence vote was cast. That is the main argument of the SNP and the reason that they say the goal post has moved and the reason for a second vote

 

[marshbrewer]

Either way, it's not really any of my business. If Scotland wants to plough it's own furrow, I wish her well.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Hi Jon glad your dad is ok, it is a massive operation with a lot of potential complications,

 

[Rodcx500z]

You have very strange views. It's ok in your mind for Boris to push Brexit but it's not ok for Scotland to hold a different view or seek a different path.
No one knows the final out come of Brexit. The biggest problem is everyone believes their way is the right way.

Hi Sam its not weird I just think she is jumping the gun, she did this in 2014 and lost better to wait and see which way it pans out, it just pains me why people cant live in peace with each other, tolerance is a great thing

 

[terrym]

Hi Sam its not weird I just think she is jumping the gun, she did this in 2014 and lost better to wait and see which way it pans out, it just pains me why people cant live in peace with each other, tolerance is a great thing

Call it what you like but they voted remain with Brexit. And the big draw for them to remain in the UK was that they would be part of the EU when the independence vote was cast. That is the main argument of the SNP and the reason that they say the goal post has moved and the reason for a second vote

Sturgeon is an opportunist politician like so many others, and the party she represents has a single agenda. The case for leaving the Union, given the Scottish people were by majority pro EU, is at it's strongest at the moment, and the SNP are maximising that opportunity. However if that is lost by a short and medium term Brexit outcome that is better for Scotland than is currently perceived by Scottish 'Remainers' then the case is weaker and the majority of Scots may decide again that leaving the Union is not what they want, and I'm sure the SNP are fully aware of that. So I believe, for what it's worth, that there is prudence in waiting but to still give the Scottish people another chance in a few years time to vote on this issue, which was the understanding after the first referendum. But then I'm only an Englishman who has no direct say in all of this, but does have to tolerate the impact of Nationalists in the House of Commons apparently voting on matters which only affect England, whereas the Welsh, Scottish and N Irish* have their own Assemblies (*whether it functions or not) and have some degree of self governance.

 

[MmmBeer]

Hell must be being condemned to playing Monopoly with remainers.

"Yes I know that I rolled a five and that would put me on Park Lane with your hotel, but I think you'll find is that what I actually meant to do was roll an eight to put me on Go, so I'll just roll again."
"Oh crap, it's a seven!"

 

[An Ankoù]

Sturgeon is an opportunist politician like so many others, and the party she represents has a single agenda.

Without prejudice to the rest of what you say above, I find Sturgeon sincere rather than opportunist. Certainly her party has a single agenda, but it's open and on the table. A quick googling tells me that the SNP was founded in 1934 to fight for, among other causes, Scottish independence. That was before we even joined the EU, let alone voted to leave. Certainly, Scotland has an ancient affinity with Europe through la Vieille Alliance with France of the 13th century, entered into in an attempt to resist repeated English invasions, so perhaps the Scots feel more naturally European than the English and it's not really opportunist to draw political advantage from the present circumstance. For me, Farage and Johnson are opportunists. I don't believe they subscribe to any ideology apart from that of "self" at whatever cost to the rest of us. I don't put Sturgeon in that league.
I'm not saying she's right or that I agree with her, however. As my good lady pointed out (who is immensely wise), an independent Scotland might find itself in Limbo, its membership repeatedly vetoed by Spain, who don't want to give any excuses to Catalonia.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

the_quick said: ↑
But when Scotland wants the same, everyone in England loose their sh*t..

I dont think that's the case at all. I suspect if you asked the average Englishman or woman (whoever they are nowadays) whether it mattered much to them whether the Scots left the Union or not, most probably couldn't care less

I think you are right Terry.

the_quick said: ↑
But when Scotland wants the same, everyone in England loose their sh*t..

I think you may have that the wrong way round, i wish we had the same as Scotland - no tuition fees, no prescription charges, no dentistry charges, free care for the elderly, free hospital parking, frozen council tax (the list is probably longer)

 

[An Ankoù]

I think you are right Terry.




I think you may have that the wrong way round, i wish we had the same as Scotland - no tuition fees, no prescription charges, no dentistry charges, free care for the elderly, free hospital parking, frozen council tax (the list is probably longer)

No tuition fees for Scottish residents or any other European resident but not the rest of Britain. I understand.

EU students are currently entitled to the same free university tuition as Scots under European law. However, students from other parts of the UK are charged tuition fees.

I can see why that needs to be the case, but it still doesn't seem fair.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A quick heads up.

If your post has been removed please do not ask why i asked members to be civil and on the whole they have been.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I think you are right Terry.




I think you may have that the wrong way round, i wish we had the same as Scotland - no tuition fees, no prescription charges, no dentistry charges, free care for the elderly, free hospital parking, frozen council tax (the list is probably longer)

Dentistry isn't free, nor is hospital parking universally free. PFI contracts to thank for that.

SNP are well within their rights to take their seats in the HoC, and they do abstain from voting on issues that affect only the rUK.

There also seems to be a case of Schrödinger's Scotland as well. We're simultaneously a drain on the rUK, whilst also being seen as too valuable to lose.

Any time Scottish independence is discussed online, our English cousins seem to take it as an affront on them, or as if we're ungrateful. It's about political independence. I'm sure nobody on here would disagree that more representation and closer accountability is a good thing.

 

[marshbrewer]

Any time Scottish independence is discussed online, our English cousins seem to take it as an affront on them, or as if we're ungrateful.

That doesn't appear to be the case here, though? Most people seem pretty agnostic. I'm not a fan of the disruption it will bring - many business decisions were made in the back of the result if the last 'once in a generation' referendum, but ultimately it isn't for business to wag the tail of democracy.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hell must be being condemned to playing Monopoly with remainers.

"Yes I know that I rolled a five and that would put me on Park Lane with your hotel, but I think you'll find is that what I actually meant to do was roll an eight to put me on Go, so I'll just roll again."
"Oh crap, it's a seven!"

These dice are clearly faulty....

 

[Chippy_Tea]

These dice are clearly faulty....

 

[Brew_DD2]

That doesn't appear to be the case here, though? Most people seem pretty agnostic. I'm not a fan of the disruption it will bring - many business decisions were made in the back of the result if the last 'once in a generation' referendum, but ultimately it isn't for business to wag the tail of democracy.

I have to say that the general level of discourse on this thread hasn't been too bad so far. You don't have to look very far online to form across some very unsavoury and xenophobic comments aimed at a group of people who ultimately just want to be represented properly.

The civic nationalism of Scotland is a far cry from the ethnic nationalism that breeds hatred wherever it rears its ugly head.

 

[marshbrewer]

The civic nationalism of Scotland is a far cry from the ethnic nationalism that breeds hatre

Unfortunately, the actual lived experience of the parts of my family that live in various parts of Scotland is more akin the anti-English ethnic nationalism, I'm afraid, but I suppose every barrel has its own bad apples.

 

[Brew_DD2]

That doesn't appear to be the case here, though? Most people seem pretty agnostic. I'm not a fan of the disruption it will bring - many business decisions were made in the back of the result if the last 'once in a generation' referendum, but ultimately it isn't for business to wag the tail of democracy.

I think that the once in a generation thing is completely overplayed. It's been 5 years and the political landscape has shifted completely. The electorate has voted overwhelmingly for the SNP ever since. They can't just ignore the voters because it's unpalatable to the UK government.