Tips for minimizing early off flavours?

[RobWalker]

I'll be blunt. I like young beer. it's rough, estery, pungent, musty, and tasty. the hops taste like you are literally eating hops. the flavour often degrades after a few months for me. but, that said, there are also some undesirable flavours in there early on

so here's the question -

ignoring maturation and ageing as a method of removing off flavours, how can I ensure my beer has a low level of off flavours straight out of the FV?

I'm talking about things like green apple taste from using white sugar, boiling DMS off, etc.

I assume no sugar is a smart way to go, and a 90 min boil should remove most of the DMS...

but what else is there?

 

[Green Ninja]

A question I've often wondered about too Rob.

I went on a brewery tour the other day and they ferment their wort for only 3 or 4 days. I can't imagine they have the time or capacity to condition their beers for long either.

I always assumed they would use a special yeast to allow us to drink the beer early but no, they use S-04.

Maybe a call to a brewery and ask them outright is on the cards?

Terry.

 

[bunkerbrewer]

I guess the usual advice is to pitch plenty of high quality yeast (make a decent starter), and use temperature control.

 

[pittsy]

You do biab don't you Rob ? Are you careful with the grain bag , no squeaking etc tannins , i've ruined 2 brews in a row around 3 months ago from over sparging but i think squeaking the grain bag has same problems , also careful treatment of the grains when mashing (more for a mash tun really) like over mixing etc mixing in oxygen (not sure if this is a myth or fact) can course early stale beer , i also find liquid yeast seems to improve the taste and quality of my beers , do you use dried mainly . Of course temp control while fermenting , what temps do you brew at and where is your thermometer , by the fv or on it or inside the fv , as the yeast will increase the temp inside the fv around 2c to 3c hotter than a water container with a heater in (fv in container) i know there's more just can't think of any more at mo

 

[jonnymorris]

I have read that not including your dark, roasted grains and malts in your mash (those that don't need to be mashed but are included for simplicity) helps to reduce harsh bitterness and the more astringent flavours in the finished beer. Time may mellow these but not if you're drinking early.

 

[RobWalker]

thanks, this is all great food for thought. i think beer being ready to drink at a brewery is down to optimum conditions, so it may be worth working towards the real stuff that I havn't bothered with yet - proper temp control for example. i think an e-mail to a brewery would be wise. filtering may be a good idea too!

bunkerbrewer: cheers, i will make sure to make up a starter a few days prior. what about recycling yeast from trub?

pittsy - no, i'm pretty brutal with it to be honest. i've not heard of squeaking, is that squeezing the grain too hard and releasing tannins? i do use dried yeast a lot, but i would probably happily invest in some good british ale yeast to recycle a few times. admittedly i havn't bothered monitoring brew temps yet. our house is always about 20c, and I havn't had a bad result regardless of warm or cool temp, so havn't been arsed with it yet! hahah. i will look into an immersion heater to control temp. :) thanks a lot!

jonny, is this relating back to that thing of steeping in dark malts rather than mashing them? i'm mainly looking to brew pale to copper beers, but would be brewing a stout occasionally. :thumb:

 

[pittsy]

yes i should of wrote squeezing lol

 

[bunkerbrewer]

bunkerbrewer: cheers, i will make sure to make up a starter a few days prior. what about recycling yeast from trub?

Yep, that works - I've just started doing this myself. Loads of guides online for this, the main thing is to very obsessive about sanitising!

I could throw up some pics of my process if that helps?

yes i should of wrote squeezing lol

You have to be squeezing inhumanly hard to extract tannins, don't you? I've never worried about it - I've looked to water treatment and mash temperature to control tannins.

 

[robsan77]

Pitching a healthy yeast starter and keeping fermentation between 18-20c at the beginning and slowly ramp up the temp after a couple of days.

It's at the beginning of fermentation that you get these off flavours. So prevent them over forming in the first place .

 

[graysalchemy]

As above pitching a healthy starter so as not to stress the yeast and also don't allow temps to rise. Also do a diacetyl rest for 3-4 days at 21c even if you have fermented lower.

 

[pittsy]

As above pitching a healthy starter so as not to stress the yeast and also don't allow temps to rise. Also do a diacetyl rest for 3-4 days at 21c even if you have fermented lower.

Is that even if you've brewed a lager at say 12c Grays ? i'll remember that , thought rest was just leaving it longer :thumb:

 

[graysalchemy]

Never done a lage but I think I have read that you should raise the temp but what temp I do not know. Aleman is your man. :thumb:

 

[adomant]

Astringency, tannins can be avoided by not aggressively stirring up the grains and sparging at < 80c and keeping sparge water < ph 6

Dms - good rolling boil with lid off (60 mins is fine)

Diacetyl - for ales cool gradually over 1-2 days after fermentation is complete, do not crash cool, for lager raise from 12 to 18 over a day and back again over a day (if 12 is your fermentation temp)

Green apples - avoid fermenting at too high a temp. Don't raise ales at the end of fermentation

Flavours are created in first day or so so if fermenting at say 20, start at 18 and raise to 20 after a day

Make sure grain and hops are fresh

Make sure everything is sanitised

Don't leave ale too long on dead yeast

There are loads of other measures, but these are some of the main ones

 

[pittsy]

Astringency, tannins can be avoided by not aggressively stirring up the grains and sparging at < 80c and keeping sparge water < ph 6

Dms - good rolling boil with lid off (60 mins is fine)

Diacetyl - for ales cool gradually over 1-2 days after fermentation is complete, do not crash cool, for lager raise from 12 to 18 over a day and back again over a day (if 12 is your fermentation temp)

Green apples - avoid fermenting at too high a temp. Don't raise ales at the end of fermentation

Flavours are created in first day or so so if fermenting at say 20, start at 18 and raise to 20 after a day

Make sure grain and hops are fresh

Make sure everything is sanitised

Don't leave ale too long on dead yeast

There are loads of other measures, but these are some of the main ones

excellent post :thumb:

 

[jonnymorris]

jonny, is this relating back to that thing of steeping in dark malts rather than mashing them?

Not sure what thing you're referring to but, in essence, yes. Either hot or cold steeping and then adding to the last 5-10 mins of boil (i.e. not boiling much either).

However, if you've not bothered with proper temp control I think you should start there first.

 

[Dr Mike]

In my (limited) experience, bottle conditioning seems to contribute some 'off' tastes which fade with time. My first AG (Landlord clone) tasted pretty clean when I bottled it but had developed quite a twang after the first 3 weeks in bottle. This had gone after 10 or so weeks and it tastes lovely now. The 2nd one I did (old ale) was much more drinkable at 4 weeks but has still cleaned up a lot since. They were very different recipes but the other difference was that I primed the 1st with ordinary cane sugar whilst the 2nd one was with invert sugar which is easier for the yeast to metabolise.

Perhaps the time taken for bottle conditioned beer to 'come round' is a major reason that commercial breweries largely moved to filtering and artificial carbonation ?

 

[RobWalker]

jonny, is this relating back to that thing of steeping in dark malts rather than mashing them?

Not sure what thing you're referring to but, in essence, yes. Either hot or cold steeping and then adding to the last 5-10 mins of boil (i.e. not boiling much either).

However, if you've not bothered with proper temp control I think you should start there first.

precisely that. i've never checked it out aside from extract brewing. will have a look! cheers.

dr mike - i am kegging anyway so no worry. but i do agree, bottles taste very different!

adomant - thanks, brilliant answer. i'm building some notes from what you've written. certainly temp control looks like the way to go, but you've taught me a lot! cheers.

grays - again thanks - i will build a starter prior to brewing :)

and robson, same again, cheers!

i definitely have enough to work on for now so thanks gents. incidentally, what do we think about beer filtering?

 

[neddy]

You say about this fusal and off flavours?
Ive just started using my fermenting fridge with stc unit and im leaving it at 20c for 2 weeks fermenting. Does this mean its too high a temperature as u guys saying with yeast working that it goes up afew degrees
Cheers
Neil

 

[anthonyUK]

You say about this fusal and off flavours?
Ive just started using my fermenting fridge with stc unit and im leaving it at 20c for 2 weeks fermenting. Does this mean its too high a temperature as u guys saying with yeast working that it goes up afew degrees
Cheers
Neil

Hi Neil,
There are a lot of factors to consider such as the size of your fridge, sensor location etc.
A large volume of wort with a higher temp will eventually affect the temp inside your fridge.
It's just how long will this take with your setup before the sensors kicks the fridge into life to bring it back down again.
This is why some people measure the wort directly.

Did you have an issue with fusels before using temp control?
If not I'm guessing it won't be an issue with but you could try setting a slightly lower temp to compensate.

 

[lancsSteve]

Reiterating the above but here's a few:

Pitch LOTS of yeast and control temps early
Don't bottle - keg and vent that for a couple of days - bottling definitely traps unwanted flavours that take time to be eaten.

When serving leave it for a minute or two before drinking and get a good poour with lots of head (none of this running down the side nonsense) let head collapse and add more. A lot of those unpleasant smells are volatile and dissipate quickly.

and finally the approach the yanks latched on to a while ago:

HOP LIKE MAD - chuck a shed load in at end of boil, put some in the fermenter and then more in the keg. Nothing covers up off flavours like another handful (or 3) of hops!