The Quest for the Perfect Bitter

[An Ankoù]

You will never regret it mate.. Don’t get me wrong, bottles are fantastic too. However there is something damn exciting about pouring from a tap at home. Here is a pic of a half of my wheat beer that I sampled yesterday afternoon.
View attachment 43280View attachment 43281

It's a beautiful thing to behold. Poetry in a glass.

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi An Ankou

Fair enough, you're concentrating on malts, first ... but bear in mind that when you do come back to thinking about hops, you may find that trying to break it down like this is as problematic as it's problem solving, after all one of the prime qualities of these sorts of beers is their "balance" ... and while you may only be able (it might only be sensible) to make changes to one end of a see-saw at any one time, you do need to always be mindful of whats going on at the other end and how what you're doing is affecting the balance

Hops high in cohumulone (anecdotally) tend to have a harsher bitterness. Do you have a preferred bittering hop? What hop was used in your best results?

... and, when you do come back to thinking about hops, bear in mind that you don't only need to think about one biittering hop, that you are allowed to combine them and, IMHO, it does have an effect on flavour as well as (type of) bitterness ... Wheeler's recipes for Fuller's beers (and I'm sure he will have researched this with the brewery) use Target:Challenger:Northdown in roughly a 2:1:1 ratio for bitttering, those are higher:middling:lower cohumulone hops, respectively ... you could look at that, on paper, and consider that might give you a sort of "iron fist in a velvet glove" kind of bittering couldn't you? And, again IMHO, apart from providing one of the nicest smells in brewing when you add those three hops into a boil at the same time, I think it adds an assertive but rounded bittering, with some flavour complexity thrown in for good measure

Just some thoughts for you to add into the mix ... good luck on your quest, following with interest
Cheers, PhilB

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

It's a beautiful thing to behold. Poetry in a glass.

Why thank you

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

What kind of keg is that? I would like to try kegging (I only bottle at the moment) but I don't want to make a Kegerator and I wonder about chilling the beer and also how long it lasts once started as I'm not sure I drink enough.

Hiya,
So I started off with a keg from Dark Farms. A 10 litre one with all the trimmings. Tap, gas regulator etc etc. It was on sale so I thought go for it. Its very nice and all but a little more expensive than what you can get that works just as well. So I have found that Malt Miller, Brew2Bottle and others, do these ‘mangrove Jacks’ branded kegs -
They come in a range of sizes. I have a 10 and a 5 litre. You will need a regulator and tap etc but you can buy these kegs as an all in one kit. I don’t know how they compare to an actual Corney keg, but from my research there is no real difference. I believe these are just the alternative.
I chill my beer in the fridge, at the moment the 5litre is amongst the fruit and veg, but I have plans to have a separate fridge for the kegs. Not a kegerator, just a standard fridge. See picture bellow. As for carbonation. I have used the three methods most talked about. Set your gas at something like 30psi and force carb really quick. I didn’t like the results from this. I have also carbed in the keg with sugar. This works really well. I have also tried the ‘set it and forget it’ method. For this you set your psi at say 15 and leave it for a week. This has also worked really well for me. Infact that is how I carbed the Wheat beer.
As for how long it lasts. I would say it depends on the style and if that style ages well. Some beers are at there best drunk early and need to be finished fairly quickly. Those this would be the same if you bottled that style of beer. Think of The keg under pressure as the same as a bottled beer. How long would you store that style in the bottle?
Whenever I pour a beer from the keg. I set the psi at 10. This means that as I pour, the head space is being topped back up with Co2. The beer is always under pressure that way, hopefully keeping it fresh for longer. That’s my thinking anyway. I have not had a beer spoil. Let’s put it that way.
Sorry for the wordy reply. I hope it helps? Also sorry for hijacking the thread momentarily.

 

[An Ankoù]

Also sorry for hijacking the thread momentarily.

Far from being a "hijack", Fireside. I think it was mentioned very early on and in several posts that dispense is as important as other considerations, provided the beer is decent to start with.
Just as a matter of interest for the CAMRA purists, since bottle-conditioned and carbonated beer is considered "real ale in a bottle", I imagine that beer carbonated by your second method- adding sugar and tightening down the bungs- ought to be considered "real ale in a keg", but carbonating from a gas cylinder would disqualify it from being real ale even though it's just as "real" and alive as the aforementioned.

What kind of keg is that? I would like to try kegging (I only bottle at the moment) but I don't want to make a Kegerator and I wonder about chilling the beer and also how long it lasts once started as I'm not sure I drink enough.

I've never had a keg, Galena, when we were lads we had to condition our beer in an old Smith's Crisps bag or an empty packet of Players No. 10, but, until I moved to France, most of my beer went into plastic pressure barrels. I've had some of them that have been months old, six or seven months, and as long as the pressure doesn't drop and let air "glug" back through the tap, the beer remains perfectly sound to the last drop.

 

[Sadfield]

I think (and I might be wrong) that I'm trying to get the malt profile right first.

Fair enough, although on that point it may be advantageous to adhere to the same bittering hop variety(s) and ibu level for consistency. Something middle of the road with a cohumulone % of around 30% of the alpha acids would then give you movement either way if this tweak is desired in the future.

 

[Galena]

Sorry for the wordy reply. I hope it helps? Also sorry for hijacking the thread momentarily.

A great reply, thanks for being so comprehensive. I looked at Dark Farms a few days ago and the price put me straight off, but the TMM systems look affordable and compact enough to be practical without a Kegerator. I wonder if there are any decent video tutorials on using them on Youtube, I will have a search. Cheers :hat:

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hops high in cohumulone (anecdotally) tend to have a harsher bitterness.

That's one of the great homebrew myths that dates back to Lloyd Rigby's paper of 1972. He added the same amount of different alpha acids to wort, but didn't allow for the fact that cohumulone has greater solubility and so greater utilisation than the others, so the cohumulone gave a beer of significantly greater bitterness. Thinking the bitterness was the same, Rigby interpreted the greater bitterness of the cohumulone beer as coarser bitterness.

But it's complicated, and people continue to debate the nature of bitterness - probably the best single thing to look for if you want smooth bitterness is a high proportion of beta acids relative to alpha (which would put the new Hopsteiner hop Contessa high on the list?). But it's very much a question of personal taste - some people like that raspy bitterness from eg Target, others prefer it smooth, there's no right answer (which is why commercial brewers like Fuller's hedge their bets by blending both).

 

[Sadfield]

That's one of the great homebrew myths that dates back to Lloyd Rigby's paper of 1972. He added the same amount of different alpha acids to wort, but didn't allow for the fact that cohumulone has greater solubility and so greater utilisation than the others, so the cohumulone gave a beer of significantly greater bitterness. Thinking the bitterness was the same, Rigby interpreted the greater bitterness of the cohumulone beer as coarser bitterness.

But it's complicated, and people continue to debate the nature of bitterness - probably the best single thing to look for if you want smooth bitterness is a high proportion of beta acids relative to alpha (which would put the new Hopsteiner hop Contessa high on the list?). But it's very much a question of personal taste - some people like that raspy bitterness from eg Target, others prefer it smooth, there's no right answer (which is why commercial brewers like Fuller's hedge their bets by blending both).

Exactly why I stated anecdotally. Myth? Yes, it was a flawed experiment, but one that hasn't been disproven, or rather it hasn't been proven higher cohumulone doesn't have a harsher bitterness. Yet, people continue to perceive a difference. Either way, whether through increased solubility or different character, choosing a hop with higher cohumolone will still yield increased bitterness. It's odd that YCH Hops et al make a point of giving the Cohumulone percentage in their hop profiles, when the myth dictates it is irrelevant.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Exactly why I stated anecdotally. Myth? Yes, it was a flawed experiment, but one that hasn't been disproven, or rather it hasn't been proven higher cohumulone doesn't have a harsher bitterness.

What's the hypothesis you're trying to prove/disprove? Because all Rigby "proved" was that a beer made from cohumulone with higher IBUs tasted different to to one made without with lower IBUs.

The null hypothesis should be that all alpha acids taste the same, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that one of the alpha acids tastes different. Until we have that proof, it's just confusing to talk about cohumulone in relation to bittering quality.

Yet, people continue to perceive a difference.

Citation needed.

Either way, whether through increased solubility or different character, choosing a hop with higher cohumolone will still yield increased bitterness.

That's not what you said though.

It's odd that YCH Hops et al make a point of giving the Cohumulone percentage in their hop profiles, when the myth dictates it is irrelevant.

The influence of Rigby persists. But cohumulone is relevant in other ways. If all other things are equal (which they won't be), a high-cohumulone beer will have less head and stale more quickly than a low-cohumulone beer.

Anyway, this is all getting rather off-topic, I return you to normal service...

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Anyway, this is all getting rather off-topic, I return you to normal service...

Oh you know this isn’t over

 

[Sadfield]

Citation needed.

Really? What's perpetuating the myth then? I doubt many people have read Rigby.

Anyhow, the Brulosopher for a start.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

@Northern_Brewer Yep I knew it...

 

[Sadfield]

@Northern_Brewer Yep I knew it...

Only answering the request, out of politeness.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Only answering the request, out of politeness.

Oh yes I know.
Rightly so too. We are all learning and sifting through the copious amounts of info out there.

 

[An Ankoù]

As the OP, I have to say it's been an excellent thread, so far and as long as things keep coming to light that I hadn't even considered then long may it continue and thanks to all contributers. We've spent a lot of time on malts, especially substituting for crystal malts, has a good discussion of bittering levels and types of bitterness- if there is such a thing, but not a great deal so far on yeasts and water. Top fermenting yeasts especially top-cropping yeats that have evolved from open fermentation seem to be the beer book writers' favourite, but I'm not sure that dual strains like Ringwood and Adnams fall fully into that category, then these the ubiquitous "burtonisation" of water, but not all decent bitters were made in Burton-on-Trent.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Really? What's perpetuating the myth then? I doubt many people have read Rigby.

Threads like this, with contributions from people who either don't know what they're talking about, or know that it's a myth but talk about cohumulone in ways that leave bystanders thinking that the science points towards it being responsible for coarseness.

Anyhow, the Brulosopher for a start.

That's not a citation.

I assume you mean this? Which comes with a big disclaimer - "Despite efforts to reduce as much flavor and aroma impact as possible, it’s true any differences could be a function of hop characteristics other than CoH. I fully get this and have no intention of misleading anyone– if you’re concerned, view this xBmt not as a comparison of CoH levels but different bittering hops."

He's not comparing cohumulone with non-cohumulone, but the same amount of total alpha acids contributed by low and high cohumulone varieties. Which means it has the same problem as Rigby - it doesn't allow for the higher utilisation of cohumulone. For instance Karnowski (2014) found 35% variation in measured IBUs in beers made with hops with different cohumulone levels (and reckons that Rigby had a 62% difference in IBUs because he didn't allow for the increased stability at low pH's of isomerised cohumulone).

So Brulosophy says nothing about whether cohumulone affects the quality of bittering. Meanwhile, I'd suggest Dr. Christina Schönberger of Barth knows rather more about hop chemistry than either of us, and this is what she has to say :

several research publications have focused on the quality of the bitterness of isocohumulone. One example is the research by Wackerbauer from 1993 [6]. As part of his research, beer was brewed using pure humulone as well as pure cohumulone. During the sensory analysis, these beers were tasted for hop bitterness intensity and quality. As a result of this analysis, it was determined that beer brewed with cohumulone was not inferior to the other beer in any way. In addition to the various experiments conducted by Hughes,the more recent work by Shellhammer, which utilized state-of-the-art technology, has corroborated findings that there are no differences in quality in the bitterness due to iso-cohumulone and isohumulone. However, to date, these results appear to have largely been ignored [7].

So yes, take account of the fact that high-cohumulone hops will have somewhat better utilisation and so will have a greater quantity of bittering units, but there's no convincing evidence that cohumulone affects the quality of bittering.

 

[Sadfield]

@Northern_Brewer

anecdotally
/ˌanɪkˈdəʊtəli/

adverb
according to or by means of personal accounts rather than facts or research.

I didn't mention science, or state that cohumolone gives a harsher bitterness. I said hops high in cohumulone are anecdotally harsher, a point that must bare truth to have prompted Rigby and all the research you quoted to investigate whether this harshness was a factor of cohumolone itself. It's also a point you corroborate via the likelyhood of solubility rather than cohumolone itself.

You appear to be arguing against a point I never made.

 

[peebee]

Also sorry for hijacking the thread momentarily.

Far from being a "hijack", ...

But it was! Fireside just hasn't got the finesse of a serial thread hi-jacker like me ☺

Anyway, back to your earlier post ...

Right. Enough of this jibber-jabber. There's "going on a quest" and there's "talking about questing". ...

I've wasted away hours yesterday getting this "perfect bitter" recipe ready to go. It's a "Victorian" recipe as you might expect, the one I mentioned earlier. Because I'm doomed to get things wrong, my "perfect bitter" will be that "mild"! Well "Victorian Mild" isn't going to be modern day mild, and this one is a OG of 1.045 even if the bitterness is pegged back to 24IBU (a bit lower than even I'd normally go to for a "bitter"). But the really concerning bit is it's a Boddington's beer! I'd need to of had a lobotomy or something to think of brewing something like that! Hang-on, someone's chatting in me ear (Wwwhat? ... I've had the "something"??? ... Oh aye). Okay, here is my worksheets (Beersmith output); it expands to full-size (PDF) it you click it:



It's Edd's researched recipe (linked above) adapted for the equipment I'll use (30L Grainfather, "full-boil-volume-mash" and "no-sparge") and adapted for the ingredients I have. Don't know what I'll do about the No.4 Invert Sugar; the "unholymess" blog site had a fabrication using golden syrup and blackstrap molasses which I can't connect to any longer, but those fabrications seem fine for No.1 and No.2 but seem unlikely for No.4 (Brewer's Invert is made from raw sugar, but I understand No.4, perhaps No.3, involves brewer's caramel colouring too?).

I'll promise to buy a local pie when it comes tasting it. That might avoid me getting another "angry face" response from Edd (self-confessed "Pie Obsessed Lancastrian" according to his Web-site).

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi NB

anecdotally
/ˌanɪkˈdəʊtəli/

adverb
according to or by means of personal accounts rather than facts or research.

... for example ...

... some people like that raspy bitterness from eg Target, others prefer it smooth ...

... now, OK, when you described Target as being a hop that gives that "raspy bitterness" there, we now understand you meant that it does that because it has a low beta-acid/alpha-acid ratio ... but you must recognise that it also has relatively high co-humulone levels, as well ... so by stating that Target gives a "raspy bitterness" you are adding to the very anecdotal evidence that you're trying to counter

If this is a "correlation not causation" argument, can I suggest you counter it by giving examples of hops that have both low beta-acid/alpha-acid ratios and relatively low co-humulone levels, and that give a harsh/coarse/raspy bitterness? As brewers, after all, all we're looking for is ways of assessing whether hops are going to give us the rasp/smoothness we're (individually) looking for, for any particular beer recipe

Cheers, PhilB