The Homebrew Twang experiment.

[Slid]

My understanding (rightly or wrongly) is that in the UK water is usually treated at source with either chlorine or from chemicals that leave chloramine in solution. And whereas chlorine can be boiled out of solution or will slowly come out of solution if left to rest, chloramine is stable in hot water and so requires chemically pre treating to eliminate it by using campden tabs to break it down into ammonium and chloride ions which don't affect the beer.
So if you are all grain brewing you may still have to pretreat your water if you are in a chloramine area.
In recent months I have occasionally noticed a slight TCP taste to my tap water (chloramine) and assume that the way the water company treats the water has changed since it wasn't there before. So I have had to start pretreating my brewing water, whereas previously I didnt bother, although then I was mostly doing kits which I don't do any more.

My understanding on Chloramine is that it is much more persistent than chlorine, which is routinely added to tap water in the UK. Chloramine is added usually in water "zones" with a long length of piping between the Water Treatment Works and the end delivery points (houses). This is to reduce the incidence of bacteria in the water supply at the consumers' taps.

I also understand that (for instance) United Utilities do not add any Chloramine to tap water.

If you request an analysis from your water company, they will ask your postcode and the response you are sent will indicate your water "zone". It should be possible to request further about the use of Chloramine within that zone, though it may be fairly obvious that the more rural your location, the higher the chance of Chloramine in your water.

 

[timtoos]

Hi all,

I make all-grain only nowadays with the occasional kit beer for the in-laws for Christmas. I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad. Doing a few kit beers would help keep stocks at a good level.

Every kit I do as that certain 'twang' which I struggle to get rid of. I know its there and I hate it. I end up giving them all away which is a massive waste of time and money.

I have done loads of kits, probably the best ones are the Festival golden stag and the Youngs American IPA, probably cos of the number of hops used they could've help mask that twang.

Is there any way of eliminating/reducing this twang? I control my fermentation, have tried different yeasts to the ones supplied, etc. My water is spring water and has nothing in there which could contribute to off-flavors. Do I need to leave longer before drinking (although hoppy beers will become less hoppy).

I find the Woodfordes range horrendous for this twang and have tried the Wherry numerous times and have always felt let down by it. The Admirals Reserve wasn't bad after about 8 months in bottle. I have tried so many, the description always sounds amazing but.....

At Christmas, I made the in-laws some Pilgrims Hope. It was awful (he liked it, maybe cos it was free). Some of his friends who came round wouldn't touch it and they ended up drinking Boddingtons from a can - that's how bad it was for them and I didn't blame them. There were no issues with the fermentation etc, just that kit twang was immense. I will say it was pretty young though when I packaged and gave him it. I have done this kit about 3 times for him and always think its pretty pants.

Any advice at all?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Moved into existing "tang" thread. thumb

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi all,

I make all-grain only nowadays with the occasional kit beer for the in-laws for Christmas. I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad. Doing a few kit beers would help keep stocks at a good level.

Every kit I do as that certain 'twang' which I struggle to get rid of. I know its there and I hate it. I end up giving them all away which is a massive waste of time and money.

I have done loads of kits, probably the best ones are the Festival golden stag and the Youngs American IPA, probably cos of the number of hops used they could've help mask that twang.

Is there any way of eliminating/reducing this twang? I control my fermentation, have tried different yeasts to the ones supplied, etc. My water is spring water and has nothing in there which could contribute to off-flavors. Do I need to leave longer before drinking (although hoppy beers will become less hoppy).

I find the Woodfordes range horrendous for this twang and have tried the Wherry numerous times and have always felt let down by it. The Admirals Reserve wasn't bad after about 8 months in bottle. I have tried so many, the description always sounds amazing but.....

At Christmas, I made the in-laws some Pilgrims Hope. It was awful (he liked it, maybe cos it was free). Some of his friends who came round wouldn't touch it and they ended up drinking Boddingtons from a can - that's how bad it was for them and I didn't blame them. There were no issues with the fermentation etc, just that kit twang was immense. I will say it was pretty young though when I packaged and gave him it. I have done this kit about 3 times for him and always think its pretty pants.

Any advice at all?

It might be worth having a look at the later entries in this thread: 25kg Malt Extract
@terrym, especially, comments that he gets a twang with some kits, but not others. It's a long, long time since I made a kit or used extract for anything other than yeast culturing, but I'm coming round to thinking that it's the freshness of the kit or extract that matters more than the brand. I've still got a Woodford's Wherry that went out of date at least three years ago. I'll use it for yeast culturing eventually.
In my extract brewing days, I don't recall ever getting the dreaded twang, but I did get it from kits.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I get the twang from kits but also from LME. When I extract brewed I used Coopers Pale LME and never had an issue. However I've made about 3 10 litre brew with MJ LME and they were undrinkable. I did Stout with MJ LME and that was drinkable.

 

[terrym]

Hi all,

I make all-grain only nowadays with the occasional kit beer for the in-laws for Christmas. I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad. Doing a few kit beers would help keep stocks at a good level.

Every kit I do as that certain 'twang' which I struggle to get rid of. I know its there and I hate it. I end up giving them all away which is a massive waste of time and money.

I have done loads of kits, probably the best ones are the Festival golden stag and the Youngs American IPA, probably cos of the number of hops used they could've help mask that twang.

Is there any way of eliminating/reducing this twang? I control my fermentation, have tried different yeasts to the ones supplied, etc. My water is spring water and has nothing in there which could contribute to off-flavors. Do I need to leave longer before drinking (although hoppy beers will become less hoppy).

I find the Woodfordes range horrendous for this twang and have tried the Wherry numerous times and have always felt let down by it. The Admirals Reserve wasn't bad after about 8 months in bottle. I have tried so many, the description always sounds amazing but.....

At Christmas, I made the in-laws some Pilgrims Hope. It was awful (he liked it, maybe cos it was free). Some of his friends who came round wouldn't touch it and they ended up drinking Boddingtons from a can - that's how bad it was for them and I didn't blame them. There were no issues with the fermentation etc, just that kit twang was immense. I will say it was pretty young though when I packaged and gave him it. I have done this kit about 3 times for him and always think its pretty pants.

Any advice at all?

What I said in another thread 3 years ago
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/home-brew-twang.72454/#post-694608My favourite remains cheap or old LME.
But I found Muntons kits were vulnerable to twang so I stopped using them. (just like youwith the Wherry)
Coopers kits were OK.
The Youngs AIPA and APA kits were OK.
I only ever did one Ritchies kit the Landlords Bitter and didnt really get on with it.
Mangrove Jacks is a range I didnt try so cant comment

 

[Cyberjip]

I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad.

Hi, I feel your pain I also have a young family, however I do manage to keep up my supply doing AG,

Perhaps if you can't manage to get on with kits we could look at how to shorten your brew session.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/shortening-the-brew-day.28366/
Few bits and pieces there.

I brew after the kids are all tucked up in bed. Usually start arround 8pm with my brew day. And finish just after midnight. But I could shorten this further if I wanted to,

The night before (after the kids are in bed) I give all my equipment a quick rinse weigh out my grain, fill and treat my HLT. Set up all cables, pipes, temp controller.

Then on brew day I flick the power on at tea time so come 8 o'clock, I am ready to mash in straight away.

 

[An Ankoù]

I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad. Doing a few kit beers would help keep stocks at a good level.

I raise my glass to your good lady.thumb

If I want to get on with things during the day, I make my mash before turning in for the night and leave it overnight. Up early in the morning to heat the sparge water and away we go.
OR
Get up early and make the mash. Leave it all day and do the sparge and boil before turning in. Chill to <80C and then leave to finish chilling overnight. Up early the next day, drain and pitch. Only about 2 hours quality time used up.

 

[timtoos]

Does leaving the mash cause any issues? I brew in a Braumeister. I think it would just sit there beeping telling me to get on with the next step.
I now brew outside, I have a brewing shed but its mayhem with the steam generated (no extractor installed). I no longer brew indoors (just built a new house I don't wanna steam it out).
On steam extraction. What extractor is recommended? Any kitchen type?

 

[Cyberjip]

Yes any kitchen one should work. I also have no extraction, however I am going to build mine.

Pretty cheap and simple, I'll post a thread on it when I do it but I had a couple of other things I wanted to do first but it's pretty cheap and easy.

Large stainless mixing bowl £10
Large hole cut in the centre connect that to some 4 inch extractor ducting £3 with large clips or even good quality cable ties £4 And run that to an inline fan £12 and the rest of the ducting fed put the window. Suspend the bowl upside down over my brew kettle with some cheap chain £2

Should be all done for around £30

 

[Cyberjip]

Also leaving the mash is not something I have ever done but I know people that do it and it doesn't seem to cause Ang problems

 

[An Ankoù]

Also leaving the mash is not something I have ever done but I know people that do it and it doesn't seem to cause Ang problems

It really doesn't. I mash at 64C usually in a standard insulated picnic box. I mash in at about 64-64C leave it for 15 minutes or so and then check the temperature and raise back to 64. These boxes do the job, but they're not particularly efficient so when I come back to the mash in the morning it's barely tepid so it's probably only had 90 minutes to 2 hours at mash temperature anyway. I tend to prefer my beers crisp and dry so mashing at a low temperature for a longer period suits me perfectly. I've no idea how it would work in an all-in-one system, however.

 

[dad_of_jon]

My understanding (rightly or wrongly) is that in the UK water is usually treated at source with either chlorine or from chemicals that leave chloramine in solution. And whereas chlorine can be boiled out of solution or will slowly come out of solution if left to rest, chloramine is stable in hot water and so requires chemically pre treating to eliminate it by using campden tabs to break it down into ammonium and chloride ions which don't affect the beer.
So if you are all grain brewing you may still have to pretreat your water if you are in a chloramine area.
In recent months I have occasionally noticed a slight TCP taste to my tap water (chloramine) and assume that the way the water company treats the water has changed since it wasn't there before. So I have had to start pretreating my brewing water, whereas previously I didnt bother, although then I was mostly doing kits which I don't do any more.

I noticed when welsh water changed from chorine to chloromine. You get a thin film on the surface of a cup of tea brewed without milk. we're 8 miles from the water treatment facility

 

[Bert Archer]

Hi all,

I make all-grain only nowadays with the occasional kit beer for the in-laws for Christmas. I love all-grain brews but losing 8 hours + with a young family is difficult. My wife is very understanding and never moans but I feel bad. Doing a few kit beers would help keep stocks at a good level.

Every kit I do as that certain 'twang' which I struggle to get rid of. I know its there and I hate it. I end up giving them all away which is a massive waste of time and money.

I have done loads of kits, probably the best ones are the Festival golden stag and the Youngs American IPA, probably cos of the number of hops used they could've help mask that twang.

Is there any way of eliminating/reducing this twang? I control my fermentation, have tried different yeasts to the ones supplied, etc. My water is spring water and has nothing in there which could contribute to off-flavors. Do I need to leave longer before drinking (although hoppy beers will become less hoppy).

I find the Woodfordes range horrendous for this twang and have tried the Wherry numerous times and have always felt let down by it. The Admirals Reserve wasn't bad after about 8 months in bottle. I have tried so many, the description always sounds amazing but.....

At Christmas, I made the in-laws some Pilgrims Hope. It was awful (he liked it, maybe cos it was free). Some of his friends who came round wouldn't touch it and they ended up drinking Boddingtons from a can - that's how bad it was for them and I didn't blame them. There were no issues with the fermentation etc, just that kit twang was immense. I will say it was pretty young though when I packaged and gave him it. I have done this kit about 3 times for him and always think its pretty pants.

Any advice at all?

As a brewer of kits for a number of years I suggest you:
(a) filter all of your water (a simple water filter from Wilko will do)
(b) make a robust yeast starter to get your brew off to a quick start
(c) try and maintain a temperature between 18 and 20C when fermenting

I have had some poor results from supermarket spring water and don't recommend their use. I would also recommend the St Peters kits for consistent results.

 

[An Ankoù]

I would also recommend the St Peters kits for consistent results.

Some like one Brand others hate Muntons, some like Coopers' others can't drink Mangrove Jacks, or Woodfords, etc, etc. There's something funny here: these are all decent kits, not the dodgy stuff that was knocking around 40 -odd years ago. All have a reputation to keep and all want you to keep buying their kits. I feel we're still along way away from getting to the bottom of this "twang" business. I'm almost tempted to buy a kit and make parts of it up in different ways to see if it makes any difference. For example, I understand kits are "just add water" there's no need to boil, but extract gets boiled because you have to isomerise the alpha acids in the hops. I wonder if the boiling makes a difference.

 

[terrym]

I would also recommend the St Peters kits for consistent results.

Sadly the worst kit I did by far out of quite a number from different suppliers was a (Muntons) St Peters Ruby Red Ale.
That's not to criticise your recommendation, just to say we all have different perceptions.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

AA there might well be something in this boil or no boil scenario. I remember back in the 80's I used to boil kits. However what is the difference between LME and a kit which has non hopped LME like Youngs AIPA. When I make an extract brew I never boil the LME only the hops in some DME for about 45 minutes. I steep grains for 45 minutes at 67C. Of three brews I made with this method a stout was fine but a Cwtch and Californian Common were undrinkable due to twang. I know more questions than answers but we need a multi variable experiment to sort it out.

 

[An Ankoù]

AA there might well be something in this boil or no boil scenario. I remember back in the 80's I used to boil kits. However what is the difference between LME and a kit which has non hopped LME like Youngs AIPA. When I make an extract brew I never boil the LME only the hops in some DME for about 45 minutes. I steep grains for 45 minutes at 67C. Of three brews I made with this method a stout was fine but a Cwtch and Californian Common were undrinkable due to twang. I know more questions than answers but we need a multi variable experiment to sort it out.

Agreed. And I'm only speculating about boiling. Apart from a stout I made when I was confined to a flat, I haven't made a kit for more decades than I can remember and my last extract brews were all "Black Death Porter" the last one being in April, 2002 when I think I was using up the last of it since most of my recipes at that time were for Summer Lightning and Fuller's Honeydew (haven't tasted that for ages) and I used Marris Otter. My notes also inform me that I didn't buy 25 Kg Jerry Cans of Brupaks Extract as I said above, they were 15Kg packs and even in 2001 they cost "39.99.
I also used to use an extract called "Brecon Malt" which definitely had a twang, but it was malt extract for baking rather than specifically for brewing and it gave the house beer a particular "character" in the day. Didn't get any complaints and brewed it over and over again until the health food store I bought it from closed down.

 

[samale]

I raise my glass to your good lady.thumb

If I want to get on with things during the day, I make my mash before turning in for the night and leave it overnight. Up early in the morning to heat the sparge water and away we go.
OR
Get up early and make the mash. Leave it all day and do the sparge and boil before turning in. Chill to <80C and then leave to finish chilling overnight. Up early the next day, drain and pitch. Only about 2 hours quality time used up.

Something very similar to what I do. I don't sit about watching the mash I get on with other things. Normally I get the mash on early then once the children are in bed I sparge and boil. I don't chill so it sits over night before pitching the yeast the next day. I have also recently tried no boil as well. Brew day can be as short as two hours and that's including cleaning up

 

[gar]

I noticed when welsh water changed from chorine to chloromine. You get a thin film on the surface of a cup of tea brewed without milk. we're 8 miles from the water treatment facility

hi DOJ, can you tell me when welsh water changed to Chloromine? ta