The Homebrew Twang experiment.

[johncrobinson]

Thought i would pass on a rather unusual observation about water.

I often keep a bottle of cold tap water in the fridge during summer.
After a day or two the taste of chlorine becomes so strong i have to discard the water.

But the same water direct from the tap is as fresh as a daisy with no hint of excess chlorine at all.

 

[ITMA]

I've noticed this. I keep a glass of water by my bedside, on occasions I've forgotten to refresh it and it tastes heavily of chlorine. So it's not necessarily the fridge part causing it.

 

[johncrobinson]

Hi ITMA

So:>
its not the fridge
its not just me
its not just my local water
its not because it was in sealed bottle
and it dont happen to shop bought bottled water

Ideas anyone ????????

 

[Cheshire Cat]

What did Sherlock Holmes say and I miss quote
"When you've eliminated what's possible then what's left however improbable s the answer."
However I would add
1. Cheap kits
2. Cheap yeast
3. Water quality

 

[ITMA]

Hi ITMA

So:>
its not the fridge
its not just me
its not just my local water
its not because it was in sealed bottle
and it dont happen to shop bought bottled water

Ideas anyone ????????

I've no idea - Chemistry is something I wasn't allowed to do at school for some reason (crap school). I suppose it must be something to do with the reaction to air, but can't think what!

Edit; this might suggest it's simply due to the fact that water is warmer the longer it is left: https://www.wired.com/2015/08/big-question-tap-water-go-stale-overnight/

A bit further into that article says the chlorine is volatile so it dissipates, so you might actually be simply smelling the chlorine as it is dissipating, and not really tasting it. [smell is a massive component of taste; try this by holding your nose and putting ground cinnamon on your tongue. It's almost completely tasteless, like chalk. Let go of nose and boom!]

 

[johncrobinson]

Hi ITMA
An interesting article i hadnt realised that anybody else had noticed this.
A few points though.
Firstly the water is colder than at the start (not warmer as per article )
Secondly Its in a sealed bottle (not an open glass as per article )

The water continues to spoil the longer its left in the fridge.

I am going to perform an experiment tonight. I will put two fresh bottles in the fridge one with a campden tablet and the control bottle without, And compare the taste. then recompare over the next few days.

The campden will eliminate any chlorine on day one.

I will report back with the results in a few days.

I was really asking this question from a brewing and winemaking perspective and could IT whatever IT is, Be affecting our wines and beers ?.

 

[johncrobinson]

6/11/2019 started.
slight taste of campden in treated bottle
but both bottles taste fresh

7/11/2019 suprising difference allready
can still taste campden but this bottle is still fresh
untreated bottle starting to taste off.

8/11/2019 big difference now
campden treated bottle still fresh
untreated bottle now quite "yuk"
I would normally empty the untreated bottle by this stage and start with fresh water.

 

[Scottyburto]

I personally through no scientific approach whatsoever believe it is from beer that isn't fully fermented out. Or to be more specific struggled to fully ferment out.

So old nearly dead yeast, old kit, incorrect/fluctuating temperature, too much chlorine killing some of the yeast but ultimately not enough healthy/active yeast cells to break down the sugars completely or quickly enough without getting stressed and producing off flavours or phenols.

I first started doing kits in 2013 and kept getting the twang with wherry. I stopped brewing for a few years, and when i restarted i was reading up on this site and found out it was a common complaint that woodfordes weren't supplying enough yeast in the package and it was common for stuck fermentation.

Since I've been following the 2+2+2 rule and generally left it alone I've not had the twang with any other kits and I've used both bottle and tap water.

It's all purely my amateur hobbiest observations!

 

[johncrobinson]

I do hope ive not gone to much off topic with this water experiment i am doing

Of course it bears no relation to problems with old yeast ect and probs has no relation to the "twang"

It might change how i use sulphite in my wine and beers
I dont normally sulphite my finished wine (as is the normal reccomendation) i think i might start doing so.

 

[johncrobinson]

Re:> ITMA. We did a similar experiment at school.You ate a piece of potato whilst holding a piece of apple to your nose you thought you were eating an apple

As far as my own experiment is concerned i think it needs someone who works for a water company to explain whats going on.
Since i have a result i think i need go no futher.

 

[mattrickl06]

In my opinion after successfully eliminating the HB twang, it is down to one or more of the factors below:

* Treatment of water with 1/2 campden tablet
* Addition of gypsum to mash water
* Removal of air contamination in all 3 of secondary / keg / bottling transfer - keep them all surrounded in CO2 and zero air and you will see huge improvements.
* Temperature controlled fermentation

 

[Cheshire Cat]

All the above is common with AG, so why no twang there? I think it's the combination of the water and extract malt. Has anyone boiled a kit for say 60 minutes and noticed any difference?

 

[strange-steve]

I think part of the problem here is that people use the word "twang" to describe many different off-flavours. Some of the things mentioned by @mattrickl06 for example might help with some off-flavours, but not the typical and distinctive "kit beer" taste.

To be fair I haven't tasted a lot of kit beers, but every one I have tasted has had that flavour which I've never tasted in any AG beer. That would suggest to me that the culprit is something which is not common to both AG and kit beers, probably the LME.

Water seems to get the blame a lot of the time, but there are lots of AG brewers who don't treat their water and make very good beers with no "twang". I have no doubt the blame lies elsewhere.

 

[GerritT]

Twang here. Discovered a can of hopped LME. Brewed according to instructions. Bit tart, medicinal, especially back of the tongue.

Will try to replicate with another can (50% off)

 

[DixeySJ]

In my opinion after successfully eliminating the HB twang, it is down to one or more of the factors below:

* Treatment of water with 1/2 campden tablet
* Addition of gypsum to mash water
* Removal of air contamination in all 3 of secondary / keg / bottling transfer - keep them all surrounded in CO2 and zero air and you will see huge improvements.
* Temperature controlled fermentation

Spooky - I read this and wondered for a moment if I’d posted it myself in an absent moment - absolutely describes my experience. Whether my ‘twang’ is similar to other people’s I cant say, but ‘it’ was the same in my early AG batches as I used to get from kits, until I made the tweaks as described. If I was a scientist instead of a pragmatist I’d do a series of test brews to find out which makes the greatest difference ....

 

[strange-steve]

Hi ITMA

So:>
its not the fridge
its not just me
its not just my local water
its not because it was in sealed bottle
and it dont happen to shop bought bottled water

Ideas anyone ????????

Interesting. I wonder is this a chloramine issue, rather than chlorine. Chloramine can form in chlorinated water when it reacts with organic matter, which could possibly be picked up en route to your tap, from the bottle which isn't sterile, from drinking out of the bottle etc. Not sure but this is the only thing I can think of.

 

[Lesinge]

Just my observation. I have been doing only all grain for a few years and never had a “twang” like I sometimes got in Kits. Same water profile everything, yet my AG beer is drinkable almost as soon as it is bottled..well within a couple of days. A few weeks ago my uncle gave me a kit from the range that he was given but didn’t get round to making and now had no room so I made it. I did pimp it a bit with a steep of Carapils and Chocolate malt to give it a bit more body/flavour. Bottled it and then had one one week and then two weeks later and there was that horrible homebrew twang. It isn’t the water in my opinion must be the ingredients, yeast or maybe just the sugar that gets added. I know that eventually it will be drinkable but doesn’t make me ever to want to back to Kits.

 

[GerritT]

Not the water, because it's only kits. And there is very little chloride in the water here.
And DME doesn't produce the twang either. I'm testing now with hopped LME, I'll try a later test with unhopped LME.

 

[johncrobinson]

Re:> Strange-steve. In my experiment the water was poured into glasses.Not drunk from the bottle.
You mention chloramine,I think you may have a good point there.
My water has a lot of peat in it,Soooo could be ????????

Re:> GerritT. Also may have a good point.

The mystery deepens.

 

[nige]

I just love the word, Twang!!, I just assumed it was down to a very vigorous fermentation and leaving it too long over spent yeast.