The EU Poll.

[Chippy_Tea]

The UK will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June.

Have you already decided which way you are going to vote?

I am still on the fence as i haven't read enough about the pros and cons to make a decision.

If we can stick to giving our views without trying to tell members theirs is wrong it will save the thread turning into an argument and being locked.

 

[MyQul]

I'm leaving! The Free State of Peckham is seceding from the UK forthwith!

 

[ManseMasher]

Will it affect the price of hops if we leave?!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I am on the fence but leaning towards leaving, this may of course change as we hear more in the coming weeks.

 

[wfr42]

My initial thoughts are yes, the UK should stay. I think the UK already has a pretty good deal within the EU while not being as embedded as other member countries.

But I got closer to the fence in the Scottish independence, but stayed with my initial thought there. So we'll see.

 

[terrym]

I'm leaving! The Free State of Peckham is seceding from the UK forthwith!

You may remember (at least if you are as old as I am) the film 'Passport to Pimlico' one of those old British films, in which the locals declared independence from the UK, on the basis that they were historically linked to Burgundy in France and could therefore abstain from austerity measures in place in postwar UK. So be careful what you wish for in Pimlico, if there are any similarities, since France is very much part of the EU, and will be as long as there are French farmers to subsidise!

 

[mike-os]

right now europe is neither chalk nor cheese, just a right mess with every member out for themselves, regardless of the future fallout, no cohesive policy that is universally applied and no immediate prospects for improvement. Too many "edicts from on high" with no consideration of the wants, needs or desires of member states, and run by an unelected elite who answer to no one.

out or in as we are and the UK will always be marginalised, i see no difference with our current place or out. We either need to be totally in and with a clear plan moving towards a superstate without borders or nations, or out and watch the current mess fall apart form the sidelines... i cannot help but feel if the UK leaves then there are several other countries that will rapidly follow suit

 

[Dutto]

I'm old enough to remember the state the UK was in before we joined the European Community (as it was called in those days) so here's a brief history for those who are too young to remember the dire days of the 70's!

After WWII the UK was in a hell of a state but our politicians insisted that we were a "World Power" so despite being penniless they wanted nothing to do with what was to become the European Community.

As a result, the UK was not one of the six European states (Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and Holland) that signed the Treaty of Rome in 1957 which made the formation of the European Community possible.

By the time the European Community was established in 1967 the UK was doing its best to poo-poo the idea and as a result the then French President Charles de Gaulle actively opposed the UK joining when made some overtures to join.

De Gaulle died in 1970 and by this time the UK was in a state of chaos. (A good indicator of how a country is doing is to look at the Inflation Rate. In the UK it went from 2.5% in 1967 to 24.2% in 1975. "Lions lead by donkeys!" was never more true!!)

It should come as no surprise therefore that the UK wished to join the EC and in 1973 Edward Heath (Tory PM) took the UK into the EU without a referendum. Needless to say, those with vested interests to keep the UK out of the EU started moaning immediately so in 1975 Harold Wilson (Labour PM) held a referendum in which 66% of us voted "YES" to stay in the EU.

In 1987 the EU introduced the Single European Act which allows free-trade and free movement of people within the EU states. Check the date!! IT WAS TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS AGO and the moaners act as if it was yesterday!

In 1991 The Maastricht Treaty was signed to allow the formation of the Euro. Believe me when I say that travelling through a Europe with multiple currencies was not only painful it was bloody expensive. Every time you changed some currency the bank took a cut. They still do but since 2002, when they introduced the Euro, all we need to do is to change our GB Pounds to Euros and we can tour Europe!

(On the subject of the Euro, remember when the UK media was predicting that the Euro was about to go down the tube? That was when �£1 = €1.65. Check out today's rate. As the GB Pound is well down on this figure it means that it is performing at a worse rate than the Euro!)

In 1993 the European Union was formed with the intention of bringing the countries closer together. Of course, our politicians still wanted to play the "World Power" game so they shied away from the Euro and also from closer ties with the countries that provide us with most of our goods and most of our exports. Short sighted? You decide.

That's a brief history of the EU. It now has 28 member states.

Just a few points worth pondering are:

1. For the first time in a thousand years there hasn't been a war between the major European States for OVER SEVENTY YEARS!

2. For over 20 years the UK inflation rate has been below 5%.

3. Much of the legislation that benefits the ordinary man in the street is generated by the EU. e.g. Consumer Protection, Labelling of Goods etc.

4. The "shock/horror" stories of the anti-EU media hardly ever stands up to scrutiny. My favourite was the shock/horror report that EU Bureaucrats were interfering with the "Traditional British Sausage". At the time, UK legislation allowed manufacturers to mix about 10% of pork with 90% of fat, rusk and gristle and call it a "Traditional Pork Sausage". Guess what? Those swine in Brussels were insisting that you had to have at least 50% of pork in a sausage if you wanted to call it a "Pork Sausage".

I for one will be voting "YES" to stay in the EU.

 

[Covrich]

I am on the fence..

My gut feeling is that we should stay more because I feel if we leave it will make us vulnerable.

But I really don't know why I think its a beurocracy which doesn't work properly. There are flawed concepts I remember back in the late Nineties I was studying business and finance and my finance lecturer was saying he thought the Euro was flawed by design and that it will crush some economies and buff others because a flat rate currency will not work on economies at different levels and lifestyles.. I guess he was right..

I am more concerned about things like our NHS which both governments have been killing for the past 10 years.

 

[Toolmaker]

I'm voting to come out, we have lost our sovereignty, lost control of our borders & pay �£33 million net to the EU every day for the privilege.
Tony

 

[ManseMasher]

I am a simple soul, and this is my question. Do we get more back from Europe than we put in? If so, we should stay. If we don't, we should go. Very difficult to quantify I suspect, but I'm sure some quango somewhere has the answer. Whatever happens, hope I can still get hops from Europe at a decent enough price.....

 

[Chippy_Tea]

& pay £33 million net to the EU every day for the privilege.
Tony

That is one of the reasons i am leaning towards voting to leave, if the stay in campaign can prove its money well spent i may change my mind.

 

[BeerCat]

I'm voting to come out, we have lost our sovereignty, lost control of our borders & pay £33 million net to the EU every day for the privilege.
Tony

I totally agree. Leave before this country is unrecognisable. The politicians selling us the lie are nothing more than traitors feeding at the corporate trough. It's time to fish our own waters.

 

[Covrich]

That is one of the reasons i am leaning towards voting to leave, if the stay in campaign can prove its money well spent i may change my mind.

This is something I have to admit, the leave reasons do seem a little more clearer..

The reasons to stay do not seem convincing or clear.. Like I say I am totally on the fence and a gut feeling is we should stay but that is possibly fear of the unknown for than anything.

I don't feel the UK in general looks after its own people, this is perhaps non Eu related.

Quantifying the difference is hard to tell and I don't think our politicians will give us legitimate figures even if they had them at their disposal..

 

[Chippy_Tea]

This is something I have to admit, the leave reasons do seem a little more clearer..

By Matthew Holehouse 08 Jul 2015

Britain’s contribution to the European Union budget is set to be £3.1 billion higher over the next five years than was forecast before the election.

The Office for Budget Responsibility said it expects Britain’s contributions to Brussels to jump by £1.3 billion next year alone.

Britain will make a net contribution to the EU budget of £10.4 billion this year, up from a forecast of £9.9 billion in March.

Britain is next year expected to pay £9.5 billion, against a forecast four months earlier of £8.2 billion.

The figures relate to the sums paid to the EU budget in taxes and membership fees, minus the money received back in receipts such as development grants and agricultural subsidies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ber-to-be-3-billion-higher-than-expected.html

 

[Dutto]

I am a simple soul, and this is my question. Do we get more back from Europe than we put in? If so, we should stay.....

The answer is "On the face of it, we DO NOT get back more than we contribute, BUT there are other factors to consider."

I don't see it as a question just about money for two reasons:

One

Using similar logic we would only pay for those things that directly benefit ourselves, which generally goes against all the beliefs that has stitched the UK together since WWII.

There was a reason that these changes happened after WWII and it was because our parents and grandparents decided that they had fought a war for "something" and that "something" was the betterment of the British people.

As a result, we have been running a system whereby we provide for people "in need" (i.e. the NHS, Sickness and Unemployment Benefits, Social Housing etc etc) and 80% of us pay much more into the system than we will ever get in return.

Why? Because deep down we know that some day someone near and dear to us may need these organisations; and the same apples to the EU.

Two

Just a little thing but the next time you go shopping you will see that the goods on display have a price tag that tells you how much per kilo, per litre or per piece the goods will cost you.

My favourite shelf is the Heinz Tomato Ketchup one. I have often found that the "promoted" ketchup in the modern "top-down-squeezy" bottle is a lot more expensive per kilo than the old "shake it out if you can" glass bottle!

Even the "On Offer" items must be labelled with the true cost of the item being purchased, so, every day the UK's membership of the EU saves me money.

In synopsis, the EU costs more at a national level, but I easily recover my contribution by taking advantage of the legislation that the EU has made UK politicians introduce.

 

[Snowster]

An easy one this. We stay in of course.

The benefits we get from being in the EU are enormous, on the political front (a much stronger common voice internationally for climate change etc) and financially. The costs of being in are just tiny - the amount we pay is nothing compared to the financial advantages. We really do have the best of both worlds already - a free market approach which encourages outside investment (such as car manufacturing) and no trade tarifs into the worlds largest single market. And we have a voice. If the European Commission propose something we get the chance to say no - the UK agrees to changes and can block them if we are not happy, or claim an opt-out. This is for everything from the power of vacuum cleaners (the UK agreed 5 years ago), to Schengen open borders.

The net internal migration from the EU to the UK is a clear benefit to our economy - the thing that pays for the NHS, Defence etc. The EU workers in the UK pay much more in UK tax than they take in benefits. They contribute to our welfare.

Finally, and the thing those wanting to leave seem to ignore, is that if we leave the remaining 27 countries in the EU will absolutely screw us on any future trade deal. There are many EU countries that have eurosceptics or worse. Those 27 countries cannot and will not allow their rightwing population to think that leaving the EU club is a good idea. They will have to screw us, whether they want to or not. And we get no vote in that, we will be out. And then non-UK companies leave in droves. No car manufacturing, city of London cleaned out (HSBC et al). Those companies aren't here because they like our weather or give a damn about the UK, they like our low tax, easy employment laws, and our free access to the worlds largest single market. When that goes, they go.

So, a long post but I vote to stay.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Staying in EU 'exposes UK to terror risk', says Iain Duncan Smith

Staying in the EU will make the UK more vulnerable to Paris-style terrorist attacks, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has told the BBC.

Mr Duncan Smith, who is campaigning for an EU exit, also questioned the effectiveness of curbs to migrants' benefits on immigration to the UK.

The senior minister's comments directly contradict David Cameron, who says the UK is "safer and stronger" in the EU.

He says the UK's future is in a "reformed" European Union.

The PM has also warned that leaving the EU would give the UK an "illusion of sovereignty" but not full control.

Mr Cameron's pitch on Sunday came as Tory London mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith said he would campaign for exit - with Boris Johnson also expected to vote to leave.

Earlier, UKIP leader Nigel Farage had said a vote to leave would mean the UK was "in charge of our own country".

BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said London mayor Mr Johnson had been genuinely conflicted but had now made up his mind - and was expected to announce he was joining the leave campaign.

Mr Cameron's latest comments came as ministers began campaigning to win over voters ahead of a referendum on 23 June over the UK's EU membership.

On the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, Mr Cameron defended his renegotiation of Britain's terms of EU membership, reached after two days of intense wrangling with EU leaders in Brussels this week.

He said he had secured reforms "people said weren't achievable", including curbs to migrants' benefits and exempting Britain from "ever closer union".

The offer on the table was a "better" deal for the UK and would be "legally binding", he said.

'Safety in numbers'

Making his case for why Britain should stay in a "reformed" EU, Mr Cameron said it would safeguard the UK position in the single market and help in the fight against terrorism and crime.

"Safety in numbers in a dangerous world," he said.
Proponents of Britain leaving the EU have argued it would give Britain back control of itself.

But Mr Cameron warned: "If we leave the EU that might give you a feeling of sovereignty - but is it real?

"Would you have power to help businesses not be discriminated against in Europe? No, you wouldn't. Would you have the power to insist European countries share with us their border information so we know what terrorists and criminals are doing in Europe? No, you wouldn't.

"So you have an illusion of sovereignty but you don't have power, don't have control, you can't get things done."

Mr Cameron also appealed to Mr Johnson not to join six ministers who attend cabinet in campaigning to leave the EU.

"I'd say to Boris as I say to everyone else - we will be safer, stronger, better off inside the EU.

"I think the prospect of linking arms with Nigel Farage and George Galloway and taking a leap into the dark is the wrong step for our country.

"And if Boris and others really care about getting things done in our world, the EU is one of the ways in which we get things done," he said.

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says Downing Street has been resigned to Mr Johnson campaigning to leave following a meeting this week which left him disappointed with Mr Cameron's plans on the EU.

Also on the Marr Show, UKIP leader Nigel Farage criticised the scope of the PM's reform deal, saying it could be vetoed by the European Parliament and the European Court of Justice.

"There is one absolute certainty if we vote to leave... and that is that we will be in charge of our own country, we will make our own laws, we will run our own ministerial departments," he said.

He said the UK had ceded too much "control of our own future" to the institutions in Brussels.

A similar argument was put forward by employment minister Priti Patel, who is campaigning for an EU exit. She told the BBC's Pienaar's Politics that the referendum was a chance for the UK to "take back control".

By remaining a member of the EU, key decisions made in the UK risked "being ridden over roughshod" by the European Court and EU institutions, she argued.

On Marr, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon warned that if the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland did not, it would "almost certainly" trigger demands for another referendum on Scottish independence.

 

[ManseMasher]

My post wasn't just about money - do we get more back than we put in? Such as grants for farmers, Schengen Agreement benefits etc. etc.

The answer is "On the face of it, we DO NOT get back more than we contribute, BUT there are other factors to consider."

I don't see it as a question just about money for two reasons:

One

Using similar logic we would only pay for those things that directly benefit ourselves, which generally goes against all the beliefs that has stitched the UK together since WWII.

There was a reason that these changes happened after WWII and it was because our parents and grandparents decided that they had fought a war for "something" and that "something" was the betterment of the British people.

As a result, we have been running a system whereby we provide for people "in need" (i.e. the NHS, Sickness and Unemployment Benefits, Social Housing etc etc) and 80% of us pay much more into the system than we will ever get in return.

Why? Because deep down we know that some day someone near and dear to us may need these organisations; and the same apples to the EU.

Two

Just a little thing but the next time you go shopping you will see that the goods on display have a price tag that tells you how much per kilo, per litre or per piece the goods will cost you.

My favourite shelf is the Heinz Tomato Ketchup one. I have often found that the "promoted" ketchup in the modern "top-down-squeezy" bottle is a lot more expensive per kilo than the old "shake it out if you can" glass bottle!

Even the "On Offer" items must be labelled with the true cost of the item being purchased, so, every day the UK's membership of the EU saves me money.

In synopsis, the EU costs more at a national level, but I easily recover my contribution by taking advantage of the legislation that the EU has made UK politicians introduce.

 

[duncans]

It feels like a big decision sometimes but when you take a step back from the politics and think globally, not so much. Theres around 200 countries alltogether, only 28 in the EU. Every other country is outside the EU and not only that they dont belong to any kind of political regional union. USA and Canada co-operate pretty well without seceding sovereignty to the North American Union. Either way the world's still keeps turning.

On the EU though, my decision is out. Pretty sure about it now. I think I made up my mind last year when Merkel and Hollande announced there would be no treaty change when the UK had only proposed an intention to propose treaty change. We hadn't even got started and they lined up against the us. We ended up with the package they are finalising now which is definitely not the reform that everybody generally accepts the EU needs.

The UK alone will clearly never be able to lead the changes that the EU needs and we haven't been able to galvanise other countries into supporting significant change either, as they will all line up behind Germany.

Germany have the largest population and therefore the major EU voting block. The EU will always act in Germany's best interest. If that happens to be in line with your countries best interest then great, if not tough s**t. There's more to it than the voting block though, the EU deal-making stinks in my opinion. There's so little accountability it's horrendous. The EU commissioners are very open about the fact that they are not accountable to the people of Europe. Politicians here and there are probably pretty much the same but at least ours are elected and more importantly, unelecetable ( I mean you can vote for someone else lol)

Just think about some of the significant events over the last few years and how they have been handled by the EU -
Election of Juncker
Greek financial crisis
Syrian crisis and EU immigration.
Negotiation of UK reform package.

Handled atrociously across the board. I am actually quite proud of the UK's politicians when I look at those events and the position we advised compared to what actually happened, and I am no fan of any political class.

Emphatic OUT. I get more certain every time I think about it.