Thanks duncans, we need to see both sides of the debate.
The EU Poll.
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I was going to post in the OP that this thread was not for members to try to persuade others to change their mind or belittle their views it was to see which way at this early stage members intended to vote, i intend to post another nearer the time to see how things change over the coming weeks.
I have added this to the OP -
If we can stick to giving our views without trying to tell members theirs is wrong it will save the thread turning into an argument and being locked.
I have added this to the OP -
If we can stick to giving our views without trying to tell members theirs is wrong it will save the thread turning into an argument and being locked.
mike-os
Landlord.
Nice to see a civil debate on what is always an emotive subject,
It is such a complex issue, and tbh I am not sure there is a right answer, both sides have pros and cons, but as it stands the EU seems to be out of control falling from,one crisis to another with no cohesion or vision
It is such a complex issue, and tbh I am not sure there is a right answer, both sides have pros and cons, but as it stands the EU seems to be out of control falling from,one crisis to another with no cohesion or vision
Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson has said he has decided "after a huge amount of heartache" to campaign for Britain to leave the EU.
He said the EU was eroding British sovereignty and PM David Cameron's reform deal would not bring about the fundamental change that was needed.
His decision pits him against Mr Cameron, who says Britain will be "safer and stronger" within the EU.
The prime minister says leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".
The announcement by Mr Johnson, who many believe has ambitions to lead the Conservative party, follows intense speculation about which side he would back.
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mr Johnson's decision would be seen as a huge boost to the Out campaign and a major blow to the prime minister, who had hoped to persuade friends and rivals to back the campaign to remain.
She said Mr Johnson, MP for Uxbridge and Ruislip South, informed Mr Cameron of his decision via text message shortly before making it public.
Addressing reporters outside his home in north London, Mr Johnson said the EU was a "political project" that was in "real danger of getting out of proper democratic control".
He said UK sovereignty - the power of Britain to govern itself - was being "very greatly eroded" by EU institutions, with "too much judicial activism" and legislation coming out of the EU.
Mr Johnson praised the prime minister for the deal he negotiated with EU leaders to reform Britain's relationship with the EU, saying Mr Cameron had done "fantastically well" in a short space of time.
"But I don't think anybody could realistically claim this is fundamental reform of the EU or of Britain's relationship with the EU," he said.
The MP added: "It's my view... we have a chance, actually to do something. I have a chance to do something," saying he wanted a new relationship with the EU based more on "trade and co-operation".
"I want a better deal for the people of this country, to save them money and to take back control," he said.
He denied his decision had anything to do with leadership ambitions, stressing that he made up his mind "after a huge amount of heartache" because the last thing he wanted to do was defy Mr Cameron.
He said he would be backing the Vote Leave campaign - one of two groups seeking the official designation - but ruled out taking part in TV debates against members of his party.
'Safer and stronger'
Speaking to the BBC, Mr Cameron had earlier issued a last-ditch plea to Mr Johnson to back staying in the EU.
He said if Mr Johnson cared about "getting things done" in the world, being a member of the EU was key.
And, he added, "linking arms" with Nigel Farage and George Galloway - part of the Grassroots Out movement which is vying to become the official Leave campaign - was "taking a leap into the dark and is the wrong step for our country".
Mr Cameron argued that the UK is "better, safer and stronger" being in the EU.
And he said that withdrawing from the 28-member bloc might give the "illusion of sovereignty" but would actually weaken the UK's power and influence.
However, his argument for remaining in the union was not enough to convince Mr Johnson, who joins six ministers who attend cabinet in backing the campaign to leave.
Among them are Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Justice Secretary Michael Gove.
Zac Goldsmith, who is hoping to become Mr Johnson's successor as London mayor in May, has also said he will vote to leave.
He said the EU was eroding British sovereignty and PM David Cameron's reform deal would not bring about the fundamental change that was needed.
His decision pits him against Mr Cameron, who says Britain will be "safer and stronger" within the EU.
The prime minister says leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".
The announcement by Mr Johnson, who many believe has ambitions to lead the Conservative party, follows intense speculation about which side he would back.
BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mr Johnson's decision would be seen as a huge boost to the Out campaign and a major blow to the prime minister, who had hoped to persuade friends and rivals to back the campaign to remain.
She said Mr Johnson, MP for Uxbridge and Ruislip South, informed Mr Cameron of his decision via text message shortly before making it public.
Addressing reporters outside his home in north London, Mr Johnson said the EU was a "political project" that was in "real danger of getting out of proper democratic control".
He said UK sovereignty - the power of Britain to govern itself - was being "very greatly eroded" by EU institutions, with "too much judicial activism" and legislation coming out of the EU.
Mr Johnson praised the prime minister for the deal he negotiated with EU leaders to reform Britain's relationship with the EU, saying Mr Cameron had done "fantastically well" in a short space of time.
"But I don't think anybody could realistically claim this is fundamental reform of the EU or of Britain's relationship with the EU," he said.
The MP added: "It's my view... we have a chance, actually to do something. I have a chance to do something," saying he wanted a new relationship with the EU based more on "trade and co-operation".
"I want a better deal for the people of this country, to save them money and to take back control," he said.
He denied his decision had anything to do with leadership ambitions, stressing that he made up his mind "after a huge amount of heartache" because the last thing he wanted to do was defy Mr Cameron.
He said he would be backing the Vote Leave campaign - one of two groups seeking the official designation - but ruled out taking part in TV debates against members of his party.
'Safer and stronger'
Speaking to the BBC, Mr Cameron had earlier issued a last-ditch plea to Mr Johnson to back staying in the EU.
He said if Mr Johnson cared about "getting things done" in the world, being a member of the EU was key.
And, he added, "linking arms" with Nigel Farage and George Galloway - part of the Grassroots Out movement which is vying to become the official Leave campaign - was "taking a leap into the dark and is the wrong step for our country".
Mr Cameron argued that the UK is "better, safer and stronger" being in the EU.
And he said that withdrawing from the 28-member bloc might give the "illusion of sovereignty" but would actually weaken the UK's power and influence.
However, his argument for remaining in the union was not enough to convince Mr Johnson, who joins six ministers who attend cabinet in backing the campaign to leave.
Among them are Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith and Justice Secretary Michael Gove.
Zac Goldsmith, who is hoping to become Mr Johnson's successor as London mayor in May, has also said he will vote to leave.
Dutto
Landlord.
I honestly never thought that in a million years I would be agreeing with a Tory Prime Minister on EU membership ... 
... so I now stand humbled before my ancestors and beg their forgiveness!
... so I now stand humbled before my ancestors and beg their forgiveness!
Notlaw
Dubbel Dragon
Stay. If we leave the money that we pay for membership would not make much difference to the population.. Most things would be more expensive due to import duties.. Doing anything in Europe would be more expensive.. The chance of conflict with another European nation increases.. For countless reasons, some selfish, some not, I'm in.
![BREWING THERMOMETER STICKERS ACCURATELY MONITOR FERMENTING BEER & WINE LIQUID TEMPERATURES 5PCS HOME BREW SPIRITS WINE LCD ADHESIVE [US]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/311DDjo2X3L._SL500_.jpg)
EU referendum - The five key issues explained
The five key issues which are likely to be debated in the lead up to the referendum on European Union membership are explained by Norman Smith.
The areas likely to be the centre of the discussion are security, immigration, jobs, finance and trade.
Watch - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35632046
The five key issues which are likely to be debated in the lead up to the referendum on European Union membership are explained by Norman Smith.
The areas likely to be the centre of the discussion are security, immigration, jobs, finance and trade.
Watch - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35632046
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Things just got interesting. Boris (Johnson - the mayor of Fundon) decided to join the outies today.
From what I read in the papers he could sway a lot of people to vote 'out'. The whole thing is just a proxy for the next conservative party leadership campaign (war) anyway.
I'm hoping for Brexit. For no other reason than 'just to see what happens'
From what I read in the papers he could sway a lot of people to vote 'out'. The whole thing is just a proxy for the next conservative party leadership campaign (war) anyway.
I'm hoping for Brexit. For no other reason than 'just to see what happens'
Basically you want to see a **** storm :lol:
I keep swaying even now.. My heart leans towards brexit.. my head leans towards remain... In truth I think neither option are ideal.. This will become a battle of who can scare the general public the best.
It does look like Boris has made his move though.. I wonder if how much he really wants the brexit...
Dutto
Landlord.
There has been much made about "The Cost to the UK of being in the EU" so I would like to clarify two thing.
1. The Value of the GB Pound
At the back end on November last year (i.e. three months ago) things started to hot up with regard to the EU "In/Out" debate.
The GB Pound stood at ã1 = ââ¬1.42
Yesterday, certain prominent politicians decided that they would back the "Out" campaign and today the GB Pound stands at ã1 = ââ¬1.28; a drop of over 0.8% on the day and of nearly 10% in three months.
According to the BBC Teletext service, in the last 24 hours the Euro has LOST value against EVERY currency in the world apart from the GB Pound.
I cannot guarantee that an exit from the EU will improve the state of the GB Pound, but from the above figures and trends the rest of the world regards a UK exit from the EU to be bad for the Euro and even worse for the GB Pound!
2. Inflation
Before the UK went into the EU we were experiencing an inflation rate that peaked at just under 25%. To put this into perspective if I have ã1,000 tucked under the mattress today its purchasing value will fall to ã316 by 2020 (ã750 > ã563 > ã421 > ã316).
For anyone who isn't already retired it means that if you put ã1,000 into your pension pot today its purchasing power will be worth ã316 by 2020.
For those of us that are already retired it means that the ã1,000 of savings that we have today will buy us ã316 worth of groceries by 2020.
There is no guarantee that being in the EU will shield the UK from the horror of inflation but for over 20 years within the EU the UK economy has managed to maintain inflation below 5%.
Summary
When considering which way to vote, please remember that for every "cost" there is a "value".
In the case of EU membership the cost is pushed into our faces on a daily basis, but much of the value is hidden from our view, either ...
... deliberately by those with vested interests or ...
... unknowingly because many people have forgotten the way things were before we joined the EU.
1. The Value of the GB Pound
At the back end on November last year (i.e. three months ago) things started to hot up with regard to the EU "In/Out" debate.
The GB Pound stood at ã1 = ââ¬1.42
Yesterday, certain prominent politicians decided that they would back the "Out" campaign and today the GB Pound stands at ã1 = ââ¬1.28; a drop of over 0.8% on the day and of nearly 10% in three months.
According to the BBC Teletext service, in the last 24 hours the Euro has LOST value against EVERY currency in the world apart from the GB Pound.
I cannot guarantee that an exit from the EU will improve the state of the GB Pound, but from the above figures and trends the rest of the world regards a UK exit from the EU to be bad for the Euro and even worse for the GB Pound!
2. Inflation
Before the UK went into the EU we were experiencing an inflation rate that peaked at just under 25%. To put this into perspective if I have ã1,000 tucked under the mattress today its purchasing value will fall to ã316 by 2020 (ã750 > ã563 > ã421 > ã316).
For anyone who isn't already retired it means that if you put ã1,000 into your pension pot today its purchasing power will be worth ã316 by 2020.
For those of us that are already retired it means that the ã1,000 of savings that we have today will buy us ã316 worth of groceries by 2020.
There is no guarantee that being in the EU will shield the UK from the horror of inflation but for over 20 years within the EU the UK economy has managed to maintain inflation below 5%.
Summary
When considering which way to vote, please remember that for every "cost" there is a "value".
In the case of EU membership the cost is pushed into our faces on a daily basis, but much of the value is hidden from our view, either ...
... deliberately by those with vested interests or ...
... unknowingly because many people have forgotten the way things were before we joined the EU.
So how much will my Festival Razorback cost if we leave???? 
Dutto
Landlord.
So how much will my Festival Razorback cost if we leave????
Exactly the same �ã23.76 if it uses all UK ingredients ... :thumb: :thumb:
... but �ã58 by 2020 if we hit 25% inflation like we nearly did before we joined the EU. :whistle: :whistle:
And IF it doesn't it will be ã23:76!
I am not playing devils advocate here this is a genuine question but a lot of the remain arguments I hear seem to be of this will be screwed this will go through the roof inflation this trading this that ect... how does the rest of the Non EU world survive?
I am really torn with it even so early but the whole thing to me feels like sell your soul to the EU or be screwed..
At least in UK if you don't like whose in charge you get to boot them out every 5 years (or at least try even if the big two have rigged the voting system during their tenures).. can we vote to boot out whose running the big show?? (again genuine question).
To me the idea of EU is great, I think the reality is that is doesn't really work very well.. but it is like we are too far gone to leave..
Unfortunately this is already coming down to who can scare the nation the most
I am really torn with it even so early but the whole thing to me feels like sell your soul to the EU or be screwed..
At least in UK if you don't like whose in charge you get to boot them out every 5 years (or at least try even if the big two have rigged the voting system during their tenures).. can we vote to boot out whose running the big show?? (again genuine question).
To me the idea of EU is great, I think the reality is that is doesn't really work very well.. but it is like we are too far gone to leave..
Unfortunately this is already coming down to who can scare the nation the most
mike-os
Landlord.
I do wonder just how much will really change
Borders... so you have to show a passport to enter Europe or the uk, oh we have to do that now
Finance... We will pay out less theoretically allowing several billions more of internal investment.... ( no need for EU grants to disappear, it's just the money we already paid in coming back having been processed in Brussels)
Trade.... We are both a market and supplier to much of the EU, deliberately stopping, taxing or interfering with that in a major way harms both parties.
UK inflation has nothing to do with the EU, it could hit 25% next month and Brussels would not care....
Migration, immigration and overseas workers. ... worked ok in the 70 ' and 80s without the current agreements, but was based on employment needs or the ability to pay your way, not benefits or social desires/trends.
Borders... so you have to show a passport to enter Europe or the uk, oh we have to do that now
Finance... We will pay out less theoretically allowing several billions more of internal investment.... ( no need for EU grants to disappear, it's just the money we already paid in coming back having been processed in Brussels)
Trade.... We are both a market and supplier to much of the EU, deliberately stopping, taxing or interfering with that in a major way harms both parties.
UK inflation has nothing to do with the EU, it could hit 25% next month and Brussels would not care....
Migration, immigration and overseas workers. ... worked ok in the 70 ' and 80s without the current agreements, but was based on employment needs or the ability to pay your way, not benefits or social desires/trends.
wheazy_joe
Landlord.
If it goes ANYTHING like the recent Scottish referendum then you are absolutely on the money.
I was listening to the radio this morning and they were discussing big businesses reaction if we came out, as an example he used BMW, he said the first think the boss of BMW would do is phone Markel and tell her to get a deal with the UK as soon as possible.
The way I see it so far is the ones trying to scare voters are the ones who want us to stay in.
The way I see it so far is the ones trying to scare voters are the ones who want us to stay in.
mike-os
Landlord.
Exactly with vag, porsche and mercedes right behind them..... along with a long list of other manufacturers across the whole EU. 53% of uk imports and 45% of exports are eu, something like ã500bn in total in 2014.... ie we buy about ã50bn a year off the eu I don't think anyone can just close shop on this kind of business, sure the terms may change a little, but that's a 2 way street too
Dutto
Landlord.
One thing that will definitely disappear if we come out of the EU is the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) which gives EU members free medical care anywhere within the EU. (The only proviso being that you have to pay the going rate in the country where you fall ill and then recover it from the NHS when you return to the UK.)
In less than two weeks we will be going over to France for up to three months and we will be relying on our EHIC's for ALL medical matters.
Why? Well, at 73 years old the Insurance companies hate insuring us for such long periods; and if they do insure us then they charge so much money and put in so many exclusions that it's like throwing money down a drain!
It's just the little things like this that make me want to stay in the EU.
As I am on this subject I may as well point out that the "Leave" lobby is now telling everyone that the UK will save money by getting rid of "useless and costly legislation"; but so far they haven't actually specified which "useless and costly legislation" will be scrapped.
Maybe it will include:
o Product Labelling and Pricing. It costs a mint for shops and supermarkets to tell consumers what they are buying and how much it costs.
o Safety Equipment. Boots, hard-hat, goggles, gloves, respirators, hearing protection, overalls etc are all expensive and all have to be provided.
o Consumer Protection. Having to take back goods that are not "fit for purpose" costs companies millions every year.
It would be nice if the "Leave" brigade actually told us which "useless and costly legislation" they intend to scrap to deliver the huge savings that they promise. :thumb:
In less than two weeks we will be going over to France for up to three months and we will be relying on our EHIC's for ALL medical matters.
Why? Well, at 73 years old the Insurance companies hate insuring us for such long periods; and if they do insure us then they charge so much money and put in so many exclusions that it's like throwing money down a drain!
It's just the little things like this that make me want to stay in the EU.
As I am on this subject I may as well point out that the "Leave" lobby is now telling everyone that the UK will save money by getting rid of "useless and costly legislation"; but so far they haven't actually specified which "useless and costly legislation" will be scrapped.
Maybe it will include:
o Product Labelling and Pricing. It costs a mint for shops and supermarkets to tell consumers what they are buying and how much it costs.
o Safety Equipment. Boots, hard-hat, goggles, gloves, respirators, hearing protection, overalls etc are all expensive and all have to be provided.
o Consumer Protection. Having to take back goods that are not "fit for purpose" costs companies millions every year.
It would be nice if the "Leave" brigade actually told us which "useless and costly legislation" they intend to scrap to deliver the huge savings that they promise. :thumb:
And maybe it wont, this is exactly the scaremongering from those that want us to stay in i and others have discussed in the tread, i am sure over time these things will be explained and until then can we only post facts in this thread as speculation is just that.
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