The Coronavirus thread.

[Northern_Brewer]

I saw this a few days ago. 1st thought was its amazing ts still on youtube as anything against the main narrative on COVID 19 is usually removed with amazing efficiency. The claims I took from it are.

It's not a question of a "main narrative" - it's a question of what has scientific evidence behind it. Trust me, if there's evidence for something working against COVID-19, the "main narrative" will absorb it with pleasure. Conversely, it's not helpful to tout treatments that have no evidence for working - or worse, may be actively harmful.

Next claim was anyone who has had the virus is immune for life, she presented this as an absolute fact. I don't think anyone knows if this is the case but from what I have seen and read its likely immunity would last at least 6 months more likely 2 years+ and could last for life and even if immunity only lasts 6 months some resistance would remain for much longer but being a brand new virus anything is possible.

Anything is possible - but anybody claiming absolute facts about long-term immunity for a virus that's been known about for <6 months is full of bull manure.

In fact that kind of certainty is a reliable guarantee that you're not talking about a credible scientist but someone with an ulterior motive. Science just doesn't work in certainties like that, and right now the immunity question is perhaps the biggest uncertainty about SARS2. As you say we get some good immunity from similar viruses for a few months, and weaker immunity after that - but it's simply too soon to tell with this new virus. Anything is possible, but for now the working assumption has to be that it's something similar to flu or original SARS. But if anything, the thought tends to be that we'll have less immunity than some kind of invincible eternal immunity. The Lancet talks about this at a high level, Wired's done a good article or see this from the MIT Tech Review :

"They found that people frequently got reinfected with the same coronavirus, even in the same year, and sometimes more than once. Over a year and a half, a dozen of the volunteers tested positive two or three times for the same virus, in one case with just four weeks between positive results. That’s a stark difference from the pattern with infections like measles or chicken pox, where people who recover can expect to be immune for life. For the coronaviruses “immunity seems to wane quickly,”...it’s not even known, for instance, whether the common coronaviruses mutate in ways that let them evade the immune system, or whether there are other reasons immunity is so short-lived....I don’t know when this goes away, and if anyone says they know, they don’t know what they are talking about”"

Next claim the US military have a high death rate due to the aggressive (not sure what the word she used was) flu vaccines they are given causing a word beginning with C storms, from what I understand its a kind of immune system over response (the same that causes inflammatory problems from Covid), if you want more you will have to watch the video and do some research yourself. I didn't understand this enough so say anything about how likely it is.

Cytokine storm - it's a common mechanism of how viruses kill, and does seem to be an important part of the Covid story - see this good review of Covid disease (less specialist summary here) The antivaxxers love to conflate this with some of the responses to vaccines. Obviously they tend to omit the fact that the BCG vaccine seems to give some general protection against viruses as that doesn't fit their agenda.

But the basic premise is false - it's easy to find out the death rate in the US military - on 22 April it stood at 25 or 4% mortality, lower than the 5% average of the US. Also the front-line troops (more likely to take fancy vaccines) are less likely to die than bureaucrats in the Pentagon.

That's not to say there may not be unexpected interactions with military vaccines - but at first sight there doesn't seem to be a strong effect. If there's hard evidence, let's see it.

She claims if the government said in Feb. this virus is coming everyone should take vitamin c & d supplements and zinc then only those with extreme health issues would die from it and most of them would be saved if they take hydroxychloroquine at the onset of symptoms. The virus would then pass virtually unnoticed and everyone (who had caught it) would be immune. I have no idea if this could be the case but there is evidence it all helps

No there isn't. There seems to be a bit of evidence that hydroxychloroquine stops these viruses in the lab, but it needs such high doses in humans that the side-effects outweigh any benefits. For instance

The use of the anti-malarial drug chloroquine to treat COVID-19 patients has been halted at several Swedish hospitals due to reported side effects such as cramps and loss of peripheral vision.

Death rate was 27.8% in former US soldiers given hydroxychloroquine and 11.4% without hydroxychloroquine.

A trial was halted because the hydroxychloroquine people were dying : "The preliminary findings from the CloroCovid-19 trial suggest that higher dosage of chloroquine should not be recommended for the treatment of severe COVID-19, especially among patients also receiving azithromycin and oseltamivir, because of safety concerns regarding QTc interval prolongation and increased lethality. "

If there's hard evidence (and not just anecdote) that this stuff works, it should be easy to find a proper clinical trial showing efficacy.

I know everyone is desperate to find something that reduces the death rate - but taking random drugs that have dangerous side-effects is not the way to do it, not until the benefits and risks can be better quantified. And bear in mind that most people with Covid do recover, regardless of whether they took hydroxychloroquine or not.

 

[MyQul]

"Catholic churches should be allowed to reopen before Pentecostal churches, or mosques owing to their different styles of worship, the leader of the Catholic church in England and Wales has said"

What he really wanted to say was, 'We should open first because the rest of them are heretics and heathens', but realized that wouldn't go down very well

Catholic churches 'should be allowed to reopen before others'

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Table 1 here has an interesting point that I'd not seen much discussion of - in the early cases in China, 73.6% of people with severe Covid-19 when they entered hospital, had temperatures below 38C. Most people going into hospital with Covid-19 did end up with a fever at some point, but by then they're already pretty sick, it's rather less predictive than some coverage makes out.

Table 1 in

 

[Richie_asg1]

The last time I had pneumonia was a few years ago, but the only thing that helped me was eating raw garlic. I used to eat a clove chopped up into peanut butter at night - and helped with the social distancing also.
I found it easier to breathe afterwards, and it cleared up in a few days of this, along with drinking a herbal tea I make.

I would like more studies done into the use of garlic as an anti-viral as it has been used for centuries and seems to help me.
Some study done here shows promise - The effect of Allium sativum (Garlic) extract on infectious bronchitis virus in specific pathogen free embryonic egg

 

[MyQul]

The last time I had pneumonia was a few years ago, but the only thing that helped me was eating raw garlic. I used to eat a clove chopped up into peanut butter at night - and helped with the social distancing also.
I found it easier to breathe afterwards, and it cleared up in a few days of this, along with drinking a herbal tea I make.

I would like more studies done into the use of garlic as an anti-viral as it has been used for centuries and seems to help me.
Some study done here shows promise - The effect of Allium sativum (Garlic) extract on infectious bronchitis virus in specific pathogen free embryonic egg

Also keep Christopher Lee at bay

 

[Chippy_Tea]

5,873 (26%) had diabetes, while 4,048 (18%) had dementia.

I have been looking to see if there has been any mention of why the figure for diabetics is so high, i have failed so far.

This will sound harsh but knowing what its like having a relative who suffered with dementia i would say (18%) is a blessing, its not the person with dementia that suffers its the family when the family member with it gets to the stage where they haven't a clue who you are yet you are there the following day week as you cannot let them go through this and die on their own.

 

[MyQul]

I have been looking to see if there has been any mention of why the figure for diabetics is so high, i have failed so far.

Cant find the link now but it basically said because diabetics may be overweight (which is what caused the diabetes in the first place in the case of T2). The extra weight can cause pressure on the lungs

 

[MyQul]

@Chippy_Tea

T1 diabetes is an autoimmune disease so this may well have something to do with it seeing as though C-19 seems to cause problems with the immune system. No idea how the two would tie up though. Im just guessing as the immune system seems to play a part in both

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have been looking to see if there has been any mention of why the figure for diabetics is so high, i have failed so far.

This is a reasonable summary - diabetics are more vulnerable to infection in general, presumably because you need a stable internal environment to fight disease, and the body needs to provide sugar to help the fight - but diabetics are less able to supply that stable environment and the surges of sugar to fight the disease then puts the diabetes under strain which then makes things worse.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Thanks NB.

 

[MyQul]

This is a reasonable summary - diabetics are more vulnerable to infection in general, presumably because you need a stable internal environment to fight disease, and the body needs to provide sugar to help the fight - but diabetics are less able to supply that stable environment and the surges of sugar to fight the disease then puts the diabetes under strain which then makes things worse.

Thanks NB

"People with severe abdominal obesity also have mechanical respiratory problems, with reduced ventilation of the basal lung sections increasing the risk of pneumonia as well as reduced oxygen saturation of blood.20"

@chippytea This was basically what the link I couldnt find was saying

 

[Chippy_Tea]

severe abdominal obesity

Goes to google what waist measurement is classed as severe abdominal obesity

 

[simon12]

It's not a question of a "main narrative" - it's a question of what has scientific evidence behind it. Trust me, if there's evidence for something working against COVID-19, the "main narrative" will absorb it with pleasure. Conversely, it's not helpful to tout treatments that have no evidence for working - or worse, may be actively harmful.



Anything is possible - but anybody claiming absolute facts about long-term immunity for a virus that's been known about for <6 months is full of bull manure.

In fact that kind of certainty is a reliable guarantee that you're not talking about a credible scientist but someone with an ulterior motive. Science just doesn't work in certainties like that, and right now the immunity question is perhaps the biggest uncertainty about SARS2. As you say we get some good immunity from similar viruses for a few months, and weaker immunity after that - but it's simply too soon to tell with this new virus. Anything is possible, but for now the working assumption has to be that it's something similar to flu or original SARS. But if anything, the thought tends to be that we'll have less immunity than some kind of invincible eternal immunity. The Lancet talks about this at a high level, Wired's done a good article or see this from the MIT Tech Review :

"They found that people frequently got reinfected with the same coronavirus, even in the same year, and sometimes more than once. Over a year and a half, a dozen of the volunteers tested positive two or three times for the same virus, in one case with just four weeks between positive results. That’s a stark difference from the pattern with infections like measles or chicken pox, where people who recover can expect to be immune for life. For the coronaviruses “immunity seems to wane quickly,”...it’s not even known, for instance, whether the common coronaviruses mutate in ways that let them evade the immune system, or whether there are other reasons immunity is so short-lived....I don’t know when this goes away, and if anyone says they know, they don’t know what they are talking about”"



Cytokine storm - it's a common mechanism of how viruses kill, and does seem to be an important part of the Covid story - see this good review of Covid disease (less specialist summary here) The antivaxxers love to conflate this with some of the responses to vaccines. Obviously they tend to omit the fact that the BCG vaccine seems to give some general protection against viruses as that doesn't fit their agenda.

But the basic premise is false - it's easy to find out the death rate in the US military - on 22 April it stood at 25 or 4% mortality, lower than the 5% average of the US. Also the front-line troops (more likely to take fancy vaccines) are less likely to die than bureaucrats in the Pentagon.

That's not to say there may not be unexpected interactions with military vaccines - but at first sight there doesn't seem to be a strong effect. If there's hard evidence, let's see it.



No there isn't. There seems to be a bit of evidence that hydroxychloroquine stops these viruses in the lab, but it needs such high doses in humans that the side-effects outweigh any benefits. For instance

The use of the anti-malarial drug chloroquine to treat COVID-19 patients has been halted at several Swedish hospitals due to reported side effects such as cramps and loss of peripheral vision.

Death rate was 27.8% in former US soldiers given hydroxychloroquine and 11.4% without hydroxychloroquine.

A trial was halted because the hydroxychloroquine people were dying : "The preliminary findings from the CloroCovid-19 trial suggest that higher dosage of chloroquine should not be recommended for the treatment of severe COVID-19, especially among patients also receiving azithromycin and oseltamivir, because of safety concerns regarding QTc interval prolongation and increased lethality. "

If there's hard evidence (and not just anecdote) that this stuff works, it should be easy to find a proper clinical trial showing efficacy.

I know everyone is desperate to find something that reduces the death rate - but taking random drugs that have dangerous side-effects is not the way to do it, not until the benefits and risks can be better quantified. And bear in mind that most people with Covid do recover, regardless of whether they took hydroxychloroquine or not.

Thank you for the explanations the only thing I disagree on is youtube is removing anything even slightly out of the main stream narrative even people whos videos are not even about it who just mention it are getting deleted.

 

[MyQul]

All they have to do is ask @Bevvied

Residents of the Cumbrian town with the highest coronavirus infection rate in the UK have demanded to know whether the local docks – where Britain’s nuclear submarines are built – were a disease-spreading hotspot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ents-demand-know-shipyard-coronavirus-hotspot

 

[Chippy_Tea]

All they have to do is ask @Bevvied

Residents of the Cumbrian town with the highest coronavirus infection rate in the UK have demanded to know whether the local docks – where Britain’s nuclear submarines are built – were a disease-spreading hotspot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ents-demand-know-shipyard-coronavirus-hotspot

I used to work in the shipyard in Barrow
it was a long time ago but those subs where there then

To be honest I doubt its got anything to do with it, I bet poor lifestyle, obesity etc are the main factors.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thank you for the explanations the only thing I disagree on is youtube is removing anything even slightly out of the main stream narrative even people whos videos are not even about it who just mention it are getting deleted.

It's not a question of the "mainstream narrative", I imagine Youtube (quite rightly) don't see themselves as a venue for the propagation of untested medical practices that could kill people. We have a pretty robust system for testing new drugs etc, and if any of these things are any good then they will show up "in the mainstream narrative" through the normal testing system. Do you want to be responsible for something like the thalidomide babies which is what happens when new treatments aren't properly tested?

The people trying to manipulate the case for chloroquine may not have your interests at heart, see eg “Political Connections and Cronyism”: In Blistering Whistleblower Complaint, Rick Bright Blasts Team Trump’s Pandemic Response and How Donald Trump’s Chloroquine Campaign Started

 

[MyQul]

Large area's of London to be car free. Cool!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-london-to-be-made-car-free-as-lockdown-eased

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So how will deliveries to Oxford St etc happen? It's not like retail has any problems at the moment.

 

[MyQul]

The deaths have gone down but note the infection rate is a bit up on yesterday. Still 3000+

 

[MyQul]

Is just some American's or are all of them mental?

"Almost immediately after the Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down Governor Tony Evers' stay-at-home order on Wednesday, bars in the state opened their doors — and patrons did not hold back. Video from one packed bar in Platteville has gone viral online.

The video from Nick's Bar shows patrons packed together, dancing and banging on the bar top."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wisconsin-bars-packed-supreme-court-overturns-stay-at-home-ruling/