The Anti-Work Movement

[Lesinge]

I am doing a Systems Thinking course and some of my fellow students are interested in and/or proponents of the Anti-Work movement/idea. This is a rejection of the "capitalist" system that forces people to work to earn enough to eat so that you can go to work. It does seem to be mainly younger people (from what I have seen on the internet) , many of whom would like to spend the day blogging or gaming rather than working, but this is an old idea going back centuries in Europe at least.

As I am of the view that I can never be sure I am right, I wonder if my views that this will never work are in fact just me being "stuck in my worldview". For me the idea, one of those being suggested, is that we all have investments (I suppose "the state" give the initial money) and live off them whilst doing what we want to do, is frankly nonsense, because for an investment to grow it needs someone to be doing something to generate extra money from the initial seed cash. For example, if I invest in a brewery, the investment would grow if the brewery did more sales or grew its market share by inventing and selling more/new popular beers that people wanted to buy. Even if the factory was totally automated, without someone doing something to sell and increase sales the same number of products would be produced every day and my investment would stagnate. The Soviet Union, even though supposed to be a workers paradise, actually still required people to do something everyday or starve.

I am interested to know what others think of this.

 

[chthon]

I think the main psychological problem is resentment of those who work against those who do not want to work. That way you get a Morlock-Eloi dichotomy.

I think that a "Less-Work" movement would have a better chance, with the possibility that the people who work can also profit from the system.

I have no problem with my money being used to build a safety net for everyone, I have also been unemployed, due to temporary projects, contracts or organisational changes (and COVID), so it is good it is there.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Given the State's propensity to print money to solve problems (problems manufactured through government policy decisions) it's no wonder that some students think there is a magic money tree.

The state, however, has planned to impoverish workers to pay for that money printing through taxation, paying for inflated energy prices and any other such scam they can dream up (cough cough climate agenda, war, pandemic, 4 horses of the apocalypse).

What is the mechanism that these students believe is to be the source of return on their state owned and controlled investments, who precisely would generate that income in sufficient quantity to enable them to sit on their lazy arses without making any labour contribution whatsoever?

Fascinating theory nonetheless.

 

[Clint]

I think it's called bone idleness.

 

[Brewnaldo]

I don't know if this will take off, but is there a waiting list I can sign up to?

 

[Clint]

This was trialed a few years ago in one of the Nordic countries where they got X amount of money to sit at home..think of ways to make money, be creative or start a business.
It didn't work. Just like they didn't...
I'm all for helping the needy or people with disabilities but not layabouts.
I've had a lad round my house for two days laying tiles...he's a proper grafter...told me himself that academic isn't his thing but give him the tools and he'll work all day...

 

[MickDundee]

This was trialed a few years ago in one of the Nordic countries where they got X amount of money to sit at home..think of ways to make money, be creative or start a business.
It didn't work. Just like they didn't...

That’s not entirely true:
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries...n-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income
Interestingly, the final results of Finland’s program, released this spring, found that a basic income actually had a positive impact on employment. People on the basic income were more likely to be employed than those in the control group, and the differences were statistically significant, albeit small.


Also, an article I found when looking for the one above, which gives a rundown of everywhere in the world that has implemented some variation of “universal income. Mixed results but doesn’t necessarily stop people working.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map

 

[Nicks90]

Was just about to say - there was an experiment on a universal income, but it didnt actually pay for itself. But did make a positive difference to those that took part.
I think a reduction in the working week would be beneficial and an obvious next step, now that remote working has proven to be possible for a big chunk of the population (how the naysayers were silenced when productivity of office workers went up working from home!)
My company has done trials of it and found that most people can actually do their job in 4 days, if they structure their work properly to get rid of waste during the week. I would be well up for that. And it has positives besides more time off - as that additional time means you do more economically in the 3 days you have off. Which feeds the local economy and creates more service industry jobs.

 

[Clint]

I wonder what sort of jobs they took alongside getting extra money? I suspect digging holes in the road,mucking out animals or working nights didn't make an appearance.

 

[Clint]

Was just about to say - there was an experiment on a universal income, but it didnt actually pay for itself. But did make a positive difference to those that took part.
I think a reduction in the working week would be beneficial and an obvious next step, now that remote working has proven to be possible for a big chunk of the population (how the naysayers were silenced when productivity of office workers went up working from home!)
My company has done trials of it and found that most people can actually do their job in 4 days, if they structure their work properly to get rid of waste during the week. I would be well up for that. And it has positives besides more time off - as that additional time means you do more economically in the 3 days you have off. Which feeds the local economy and creates more service industry jobs.

If you can afford to drop a day.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I am doing a Systems Thinking course and some of my fellow students are interested in and/or proponents of the Anti-Work movement/idea. This is a rejection of the "capitalist" system that forces people to work to earn enough to eat so that you can go to work. It does seem to be mainly younger people (from what I have seen on the internet) , many of whom would like to spend the day blogging or gaming rather than working, but this is an old idea going back centuries in Europe at least.

As I am of the view that I can never be sure I am right, I wonder if my views that this will never work are in fact just me being "stuck in my worldview". For me the idea, one of those being suggested, is that we all have investments (I suppose "the state" give the initial money) and live off them whilst doing what we want to do, is frankly nonsense, because for an investment to grow it needs someone to be doing something to generate extra money from the initial seed cash. For example, if I invest in a brewery, the investment would grow if the brewery did more sales or grew its market share by inventing and selling more/new popular beers that people wanted to buy. Even if the factory was totally automated, without someone doing something to sell and increase sales the same number of products would be produced every day and my investment would stagnate. The Soviet Union, even though supposed to be a workers paradise, actually still required people to do something everyday or starve.

I am interested to know what others think of this.

My systems thinking has been using the vanguard method espoused by John seddon. I totally get his methodology and was using it in work before I even knew it was a thing.

Capitalism can be avoided perhaps in part by the barter system. no government required for that but more complex products services bartering doesn't work very well. 1 car = 15000 bottles of homebrew

basic universal income is an interesting concept if you were to scrap the whole welfare and claimant processes would giving everybody a basic income be much more expensive than the administration of the welfare system itself.

 

[Clint]

I think I've brewed about a quarter of a new car. I'll go for a second hand model with some mats thrown in.

 

[Rodcx500z]

How could you not do anything that would drive me crazy, as above i am all for helping people who cannot work due to disability, i have had hard times like when Thatcher made me redundant twice in 2 years but i got of my arse and cracked on, i am now retired and enjoying the fruits of my labour, i would say playing the system is harder than working

 

[The Baron]

There are some experts at playing the system Rod and they are the ones that give the genuine people a bad name or tarnished with the same brush

 

[foxy]

I'm all for helping the needy or people with disabilities but not layabouts.

Funny, the most people I have had knocking on doors looking for work were those with disabilities. I employed a couple and they are hard work but as keen as mustard. The 'don't really want to work brigade' didn't last 5 minutes. A shame that those who can only be employed in a sheltered workshop could be paying taxes to keep the 'don't want to work' unemployed.

 

[Tanglefoot]

I felt anti-work this morning at 5.45am but dragged myself out of bed as always.


The concept comes from a naive and priveleged first world viewpoint, there
are millions in poverty with no safety net and no opportunities to earn a living.

 

[Brewnaldo]

I felt anti-work this morning at 5.45am but dragged myself out of bed as always.


The concept comes from a naive and priveleged first world viewpoint, there
are millions in poverty with no safety net and no opportunities to earn a living.

Personally I yhink the concept comes from us as a society making a rip roaring **** of work life balance and people slowly recognising a need to shift the balance back a couple of notches.

Maybe when the last of the EU legislation is torn up and we are faced with working ever more hours for ever less money, with America levels of paid holiday and sick leave, until we either drop dead or fall into our meagre pension at about 75 or something, the rest will catch on

 

[Lesinge]

I think the main psychological problem is resentment of those who work against those who do not want to work. That way you get a Morlock-Eloi dichotomy.

I think that a "Less-Work" movement would have a better chance, with the possibility that the people who work can also profit from the system.

I have no problem with my money being used to build a safety net for everyone, I have also been unemployed, due to temporary projects, contracts or organisational changes (and COVID), so it is good it is there.

Agreed - that is where my mindset is I think - I have worked all my life apart from one period when I was unemployed, and by nature I don't like "doing nothing". I would find that ending up getting cold and wet digging up potatoes to feed people that have no interest in helping but who are hungry would just annoy me to the point where I would resent them - I do it for the kids but that is because I love them. .

I do agree though that as a society we have to help those that need help and I would rather pay more taxes to help people to train and then become productive later as it benefits society.

 

[Lesinge]

Personally I yhink the concept comes from us as a society making a rip roaring **** of work life balance and people slowly recognising a need to shift the balance back a couple of notches.

Maybe when the last of the EU legislation is torn up and we are faced with working ever more hours for ever less money, with America levels of paid holiday and sick leave, until we either drop dead or fall into our meagre pension at about 75 or something, the rest will catch on

Totally agree. Ress-Mogg doesn't think that paid holidays should be a right - says a bloke whose life has been handed to him by a rich daddy.

 

[Lesinge]

I felt anti-work this morning at 5.45am but dragged myself out of bed as always.


The concept comes from a naive and priveleged first world viewpoint, there
are millions in poverty with no safety net and no opportunities to earn a living.

Totally. When I was in South Africa I watched kids and adults walk for miles to get to school or work because that is how they will get out of poverty.