Talk to an idiot about Lagering

[Tetsuo1981]

Hi all

First brew in a while is nearing bottling and am already planning my next brew. Wanting to do a larger kit or re-do a cerveza kit now that I have temperature control. I understand that the kit yeast need to be swapped for a proper larger yeast that works at much lower temp. I'm trying to wrap my head around the largering process and the difference between that and cold conditioning / crashing. My understanding is thst you hold it at a lower temp for longer. I suppose my question is for how low and long and also can this be done in the fv or a secondary or does it have to be done in bottles?

Cheers guys

 

[chrisb8]

Lagering is long term cold storage, I generally do it in the bottles but I believe you can do it in a secondary fermenter as well. If you have temperature control then perhaps have a look at the quick lager method on brulosophy - I have followed this with good results recently...

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The problem with lagering is you have to take your brew in the 2nd FV down to 5C and leave it at that temp for 2 weeks before you bring it back to room temp and then bottle or keg. My garage might get to 5C in winter but no other time.

 

[Tetsuo1981]

Lagering is long term cold storage, I generally do it in the bottles but I believe you can do it in a secondary fermenter as well. If you have temperature control then perhaps have a look at the quick lager method on brulosophy - I have followed this with good results recently...

Thanks for that, I will do. Cold storage is not a problem in fv but definitely don't have the space for 40 odd bottles in my fridge. Will check it out though

 

[Tetsuo1981]

The problem with lagering is you have to take your brew in the 2nd FV down to 5C and leave it at that temp for 2 weeks before you bring it back to room temp and then bottle or keg. My garage might get to 5C in winter but no other time.

Cheers for that. Hopefully cold storage isn't a problem with my fermenting fridge but don't think I'll get all the bottles in so would be better in fv

 

[aamcle]

More ........

Cold crash, move it to a secondary or bottle and carbonate then store it at less than 5°C for as long as you can. Job Done.

Usually you can bottle after lagering and it will still carbonate, but you can add a bit more yeast if your worried also do what you can to limit exposure to air .

dropping the temperature to -1°C speeds up the lagering process if you can do that.

good Luck. AAmcle

 

[Leon103]

I am very happy with the outcome of my latest pilsner. It was fermented at 12c for 3 weeks - I brought the temp up for the last few days. Racked into secondary and lagered for just under 5 weeks at 2.5c
Bottled and left at garage temp for two weeks to carb up. Turned out nice. I have put some bottles back in the fridge at 3c to see how to may improve it.

 

[Tetsuo1981]

More ........

Cold crash, move it to a secondary or bottle and carbonate then store it at less than 5°C for as long as you can. Job Done.

Usually you can bottle after lagering and it will still carbonate, but you can add a bit more yeast if your worried also do what you can to limit exposure to air .

dropping the temperature to -1°C speeds up the lagering process if you can do that.

good Luck. AAmcle

Not sure my fridge will go as low as - 1°c but I'll aim to get it as low as I can for as long as possible. Cherlers for the info

 

[Tetsuo1981]

I am very happy with the outcome of my latest pilsner. It was fermented at 12c for 3 weeks - I brought the temp up for the last few days. Racked into secondary and lagered for just under 5 weeks at 2.5c
Bottled and left at garage temp for two weeks to carb up. Turned out nice. I have put some bottles back in the fridge at 3c to see how to may improve it.

Did it come out 'largery' if thst makes sense? Was it a kit or from scratch? Only on kits at the moment but waiting for my brew kettle to arrive

 

[peebee]

There was a very good article about "lagering" on the Grainfather Web site. Damned if I can find it now! But it poo-pooed a lot of ideas about how to lager, such as storing at very, very low temperature. It was suggesting 5-7C would speed up the lagering process ("cleaning up" the flavour) but misses out on one tiny aspect: it doesn't "harden" the lager against sub 4-5C chill hazes. But surely no-one spends all that time producing an excellent lager to serve it at such head numbing temperatures? That's what they had to do to the muck they sold in the 60-70s and "lager" is still having to live down that behaviour (and it still persists in some places).

The author of that article was suggesting a month at 5-7C would be as good as (the more traditional) 3 months at 2-3C.

The other part of the article discussed using glycol coolers (which are not being recommended in this thread). Chilling below 6C enters the realms of no convection to equalise the temperatures (so the glycol chiller ain't working!). And below 3-4C one gets convection reversal (i.e. cold water rises, not sinks like we're used to). If you need proof of "convection reversal" consider why icebergs don't sink to the bottom.

 

[Leon103]

Did it come out 'largery' if thst makes sense? Was it a kit or from scratch? Only on kits at the moment but waiting for my brew kettle to arrive

Yes it did. It was all grain

 

[Tetsuo1981]

There was a very good article about "lagering" on the Grainfather Web site. Damned if I can find it now! But it poo-pooed a lot of ideas about how to lager, such as storing at very, very low temperature. It was suggesting 5-7C would speed up the lagering process ("cleaning up" the flavour) but misses out on one tiny aspect: it doesn't "harden" the lager against sub 4-5C chill hazes. But surely no-one spends all that time producing an excellent lager to serve it at such head numbing temperatures? That's what they had to do to the muck they sold in the 60-70s and "lager" is still having to live down that behaviour (and it still persists in some places).

The author of that article was suggesting a month at 5-7C would be as good as (the more traditional) 3 months at 2-3C.

The other part of the article discussed using glycol coolers (which are not being recommended in this thread). Chilling below 6C enters the realms of no convection to equalise the temperatures (so the glycol chiller ain't working!). And below 3-4C one gets convection reversal (i.e. cold water rises, not sinks like we're used to). If you need proof of "convection reversal" consider why icebergs don't sink to the bottom.

I was with it until you got to convection reversal, my grade B in GCSE in science only stretches so far! But I think I get the premise. I'll have a look for the grainfather article as it sounds interesting. I'm intrigued how upping the temp speeds it up, would have thought the opposite, but again science isn't my forte! Between that article and looking up the brulosophy method will be my bedtime reading for tonight. Plenty of time for research while I wait for my brew kettle to arrive! Next I'll have to decide if I'm gonna do a kit larger or go for my first BIAB...

 

[Keats]

@David Heath also recommends lagering at around 5 degrees in his Kolsch video:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/kölsch-video-guide.83197/#post-839195

 

[Tetsuo1981]

@David Heath also recommends lagering at around 5 degrees in his Kolsch video:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/kölsch-video-guide.83197/#post-839195

I'll give that a look when baby brewer is down for the night.

 

[aamcle]

And to mix it up I offer :-

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

I've done it, it makes lager, good lager even very good lager But you need to start with a lot of good yeast.

aamcle

 

[Tetsuo1981]

But you need to start with a lot of good yeast.

Cheers for that, had a couple of people recommend having a look at that. If I go down the kit route I'm definitely going to replace the kit yeast with a proper larger one. But I'm waiting for my new brew kettle to arrive so might have a crack at a BIAB lager... Not sure yet

 

[Nicks90]

I did the brulosophy method on my lager thingy and it worked a charm
But couldn't be bothered on lager thingy MK2 and just used a lager yeast that likes room temps.
However it is being stored in a cool cellar which is sort of lagering

 

[Brew_DD2]

Say it quietly, but if you fine your lager with gelatine, you won't need to lager for nearly as long, if at all. Pitch plenty of healthy lager yeast and you will get a nice, clean fermentation. These extended lagering times just aren't required in my opinion.

 

[peebee]

@David Heath also recommends lagering at around 5 degrees in his Kolsch video:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/kölsch-video-guide.83197/#post-839195

Listened to that video; I'm tempted to give "kölsch" a go (maybe next year now). But @David Heath isn't going to like my post if he sees it ...

… Chilling below 6C enters the realms of no convection to equalise the temperatures (so the glycol chiller ain't working!) …

But the author of that GF article did say that beer may reach this convection "stagnation" at slightly lower temperature than 4C for water (3-4C). David is using a glycol chiller and chilling down to 4C so might run foul of it.

And to mix it up I offer :-

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ …

That article does suggest really frigid temperatures (about 1C EDIT: it actually says zero to minus 1C; flippin' heck!!!). Another article I read, fruitlessly searching for that GF one, did say the Americans go in for much lower lagering temperatures than the Europeans (who "invented" the process - so what do Europeans know). As American brewing practices are considered so "right" these days I'll have to accept their populist opinions?

I was with it until you got to convection reversal, …

It was what I liked about that GF article, it awoke memories of school lessons about water undergoing a change in direction of density movement at 4C, why icebergs float, etc.. And I guess I'm having to drag up more ancient memories than you (there was no GCSEs and no combined "science" subject - just GCEs).

 

[terrym]

Cheers for that, had a couple of people recommend having a look at that. If I go down the kit route I'm definitely going to replace the kit yeast with a proper larger one. But I'm waiting for my new brew kettle to arrive so might have a crack at a BIAB lager... Not sure yet

If you go down the kit route Coopers Euro lager is a good basic lager kit. Although I'm not generally a lager drinker I've done it a few times. And adding a Saaz or Hallertau dry hop/hop tea will lift it. I also used Motueka and that worked. The kit comes with a lager yeast (unlike many kits), so the brewing options are brew it at about 20*C as the instructions suggest or brew at 12-14*C with either no extra yeast (as some on here have done) or add more lager yeast, or sub in a Kolsch yeast and brew at about 20*C. I 'lagered' in bottles in the fridge. However I'll bet there isn't much difference between a lager that's lagered and one that isn't at the simple homebrew level, begging the question is it worth it, but I will also bet someone will come up with some obscure reference off Brulosophy or the like to confirm that some did detect a slight difference in tests they did.