Talk to an idiot about Lagering

[MickDundee]

I recently did a Mexican Cerveza (all grain) with Lallemand Diamond yeast and it’s turned out well.

I have a Fermentasaurus (without the pressure kit). I did 10 days at 10.5C; slowly raised the temperature (1C a day) to 20C, held it there for 3 days; slowly (3C a day) reduced the temperature to 1C and held it there for 2 weeks. I then bottled and carbed at 20C and have stored at 1C for the last month or so. It’ll be coming out of the fridge tomorrow to allow me to do my next 2 brews.

 

[chrisb8]

Say it quietly, but if you fine your lager with gelatine, you won't need to lager for nearly as long, if at all. Pitch plenty of healthy lager yeast and you will get a nice, clean fermentation. These extended lagering times just aren't required in my opinion.

I agree with you, I cold crash and fine with gelatine and this cuts out the need for long lagering periods to create clear lager

 

[peebee]

@Tetsuo1981: Found it!

Well, with a bit of help from Mel at Grainfather support (she also told me it's okay to repost it as it's available from the GF shop site, though it is a PDF file and I can't find a link on the GF shop site, so I'll cover my behind and link the shop site here).

https://shop.grainfather.com/media/wysiwyg/PDFs/Instructions/GF_CON_LAGER_GUIDE_.pdf

It's a very "level headed" article, so suspect it might tread on some toes (of people with round and/or lumpy heads?). One thing it does say is start fermentation 3C below desired temperature and allow to warm up to ferment temp. over 18 hours or so. But last time I followed another recommendation that suggested starting at 18-20C and cooling to ferment temp. after 3 hours (not much delay at all, especially as following advice to double pitch yeast).


On a bit of a tangent … Can anyone explain why spelling checkers (like the one on this site) think "Lagering" is spelt "Laagering"?

 

[foxbat]

The Brulosophy quick lager method with a real saccharomyces pastorianus yeast then fine in the keg and leave for 4 weeks at 5-7C will get you a lager that's comparable to the best in Europe.

 

[peebee]

The Brulosophy quick lager method with a real saccharomyces pastorianus yeast …

Sounds good. Can you link that "quick lager" method please? The earlier linked Brulosophy article (http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/) is pretty badly written and appears to recommend (you can actually read lots of things into it) the usual insane American practice of lagering (or is it laagering?) at -1-0C.

 

[foxbat]

Sounds good. Can you link that "quick lager" method please? The earlier linked Brulosophy article (http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/) is pretty badly written and appears to recommend (you can actually read lots of things into it) the usual insane American practice of lagering (or is it laagering?) at -1-0C.

I just re-read that link and it's a bit different to how I remember it which I'm sure is down to my memory more than anything else. Anyway I follow it up to and including the ramp up for the diacetyl rest after the main fermentation is over. I leave it there until complete which for me has been 3 weeks. Then it's keg, fine, store at 5-7 until ready. I won't lie I can't resist starting it at 2 weeks but it's only fully melded together flavour wise after a month.

 

[peebee]

… On a bit of a tangent … Can anyone explain why spelling checkers (like the one on this site) think "Lagering" is spelt "Laagering"?

Got me answer!

Because most spelling checkers don't have the word "lagering" so suggest the nearest word it does have, "laagering". Which is the act of assembling a defensive circle of wagons to camp within. Sounds like cowboys and Indians, but is a Boer word (in South Africa).

So keep on lagering (shame, I rather liked the laagering spelling).

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Chrome gives the options layering, wagering and lingering, Laagering is not in the list.

 

[peebee]

Of course, it's not the Web site it's the Web browser! I'm using MS Edge. Sorry for disturbing you @Chippy_Tea!

 

[Tetsuo1981]

Say it quietly, but if you fine your lager with gelatine, you won't need to lager for nearly as long, if at all. Pitch plenty of healthy lager yeast and you will get a nice, clean fermentation. These extended lagering times just aren't required in my opinion.

I must look into gelatin as a fining, lots of people swear by it. I'm just scared of buggering it up!

 

[Brew_DD2]

I must look into gelatin as a fining, lots of people swear by it. I'm just scared of buggering it up!

I had worried about doing it too but it's pretty difficult to bugger it up. Everyone does it differently but I pitch onto my dissolved gelatine in the keg and leave for 48 hours. First couple of pints are cloudy and then like magic the rest 9f the keg is very bright. Absolutely no loss to flavour or aroma.

 

[Tetsuo1981]

But the author of that GF article did say that beer may reach this convection "stagnation" at slightly lower temperature than 4C for water (3-4C). David is using a glycol chiller and chilling down to

Dumb question but is a glycol chiller just a really fancy fridge? What's the advantage of using one, lower temps?

Americans go in for much lower lagering temperatures than the Europeans (who "invented" the process - so what do Europeans know). As American brewing practices are considered so "right" these days I'll have to accept their populist opinions?

Seems like Americanisms creep in everywhere these days. I consciously try to avoid terms like cold crashing. As for populist just because everyone is doing it doesn't always make it right for you in my experience. I've always liked being left of center myself!!

And I guess I'm having to drag up more ancient memories than you (there was no GCSEs and no combined "science" subject - just GCEs)

Don't get me started, I still have reoccurring nightmares about unfinished coursework and I'm nearly 40!!!

 

[Tetsuo1981]

I had worried about doing it too but it's pretty difficult to bugger it up. Everyone does it differently but I pitch onto my dissolved gelatine in the keg and leave for 48 hours. First couple of pints are cloudy and then like magic the rest 9f the keg is very bright. Absolutely no loss to flavour or aroma.

Cheers for that. How much would you use for a 20L batch and how much water would you use? If you can believe I've ever used gelatin before for anything (must bethe only human I've who hates jelly in all its forms, I was a nightmare at birthday parties as a kid!!)

 

[Brew_DD2]

I use 180ml of hot water and 1sp of gelatine powder.

 

[terrym]

I must look into gelatin as a fining, lots of people swear by it. I'm just scared of buggering it up!

The one and only time I used gelatin as a fining in a brew I ended up with floaty bits in the brew, so I don't use it. And although some people do use it, under normal circumstances, you don't really need it in my view. If you bottle late with minimal yeast (say after 2 weeks or so) the beer will still carb up and given enough time with the help of gravity will usually become crystal clear. Six weeks from bottling to becoming clear is normally a good period, and this sits well with many beers as an adequate conditioning time.
As a new brewer my advice to you is to stick to the basic process and get it right before you start looking at lots of different ways of doing things. And then when you do advance and start to change things do them one at a time so you can decide what impact the change has had, and indeed whether you think it was worth it or not.

 

[Tetsuo1981]

The one and only time I used gelatin as a fining in a brew I ended up with floaty bits in the brew, so I don't use it.

I had a similar experience with beer brite finings a while back and had to run my brew through 3 nylon seives stacked on top of each other!! This time I'm gonna try and be patient and let time and gravity do its thing

 

[peebee]

Dumb question but is a glycol chiller just a really fancy fridge? What's the advantage of using one, lower temps?

Seems like Americanisms creep in everywhere these days. I consciously try to avoid terms like cold crashing. As for populist just because everyone is doing it doesn't always make it right for you in my experience. I've always liked being left of center myself!!

Don't get me started, I still have reoccurring nightmares about unfinished coursework and I'm nearly 40!!!

Fancy fridge? You could think of it like that? But expensive, not much doubt about that! I use water based "shelf chillers", not so expensive, usually get 2nd-hand ones, can be a right PITA (breaking-down, noisy … ). Glycol Chillers use propylene glycol instead of water and so the chilling lines can be sub-zero without freezing - some people want that apparently.

Populist: I did put a "?" to indicate I don't necessarily approve. But I've done my stint of week long raging arguments and just pootle along trying to stay out of them now (but often forget myself).

Nearly 40! So they allow kiddies to post on here? (@Chippy_Tea! … I've found one!).

 

[peebee]

I had a similar experience with beer brite finings a while back and had to run my brew through 3 nylon seives stacked on top of each other!! This time I'm gonna try and be patient and let time and gravity do its thing

I find "Beer Brite" to be one of the easier to mix - but you have to pay lots of pennies for that convenience. "Beer Brite" is isinglass not gelatine, but isinglass can be more effective at fining, but in it's less processed state is a right pain to prepare and dose. All these colloidal finings have to be prepared (mixed) to the letter, or they form lumps. Colloidal finings are usually made from bits of fish, bit of shellfish, the feet of calves … hence many folk are happy to just wait and avoid adding 'em (I tried the "Vegan" route for a while and just ended up drink murky beer). Some auxiliary and secondary finings will reduce the chance of "chill haze" if not lagering at really frigid temperatures (<4C) for long periods (but I find not serving beer at temperatures that make your fillings fall out is a better policy for avoiding chill haze).

 

[Gerryjo]

I brewed a batch on the 24th of July which was the night I scalded my wrist and I can't remember the ingredients but do know I don't use protofloc or Irish Moss in my beers.Cooled in the fermentation fridge to 12° and pitched Lallemand Diamond lager yeast and after two weeks slowly raised the temp up to 18° over a few days then cold crashed to 2° before transferring to a corny keg where it force carbed at 15 psi for two weeks.
Last night I had a few pints from it and no finings as I don't use them and was very pleased with the results.
This is the same beer with two different lighting backgrounds.

 

[Tetsuo1981]

Last night I had a few pints from it and no finings as I don't use them and was very pleased with the results

Looks good. Definitely getting the feeling that more people prefer time and gravity for clearing at her than finings. Will give that ago with my next batch

ll these colloidal finings have to be prepared (mixed) to the letter, or they form lumps

Scouts honor I filled the instructions to a T with a timer and everything and still buggered it up so won't be trying that again in a hurry!

I did put a "?" to indicate I don't necessarily approve. But I've done my stint of week long raging arguments and just pootle along trying to stay out of them now (but often forget myself).

Sorry my bad, wasn't a dig at all, more agreeing with you bout European vs US and current trends both regarding homebrew and life in general. I don't want to argue with anyone on here, I go to work for that!

So far then it seems largering falls into similar territory as cold conditioning but with emphasis on flavour as well as clarity due to the types of yeast, temperatures and time involved. Kind of?

Nearly 40! So they allow kiddies to post on here?

Don't be mean or I'll tell my Daddy on you...!