Some of my brews turning sour

[LacriV]

I am brewing mead for many years, and now recently trying beer as well. My first attempt was a liquid extract brew, where I also tried reusing the yeast from a recent mead, but that didn't work and the must sat around for a day or so before I added some fresh dry yeast. After that it did get going, but developed a strong sour smell. I recognized the smell from a cherry mead long ago where something went weird with the fermentation. I read in some forum that sour smells while fermenting are totally normal and go away after a while, but the beer still has a horrible sour flavour to this day. It is totally undrinkable.

My second beer I tried all grain brewing and it went fine, though the recipe was bad.

Now my third attempt, again all grain, is fermenting for the third day and has already developed that strong sour smell again, exactly like the first one, the cherry mead, and an apple cider I once made. The fermentation was a little slow to start this time, only starting to bubble on the second day.

What is this smell/flavour? Is it an infection? There is nothing visually wrong with it. It seems that the flavour is not yet affected, can I still save it?

For the cherry mead I used some lalvin yeast, for the first two beers a Kveik Voss, which I really like to use in my mead, and now a Kveik Stalljen, so it's not the yeast that's at fault.

 

[Its6pmsomewhere]

Can you post your recipe, process and equipment used? How are you managing your PH, kveik is known to drop this so that could account for the taste but unsure about the aroma. 3 days into fermentation isn't really indicative of your final product, yeast is still doing it's thing. Some lager ferments will stink of eggs during fermentation

 

[LacriV]

Can you post your recipe, process and equipment used? How are you managing your PH, kveik is known to drop this so that could account for the taste but unsure about the aroma. 3 days into fermentation isn't really indicative of your final product, yeast is still doing it's thing. Some lager ferments will stink of eggs during fermentation

It's supposed to be a sort of Austrian lager:
600g Vienna malt
300g Pilsner malt
100g Munich light malt
Hallertau Mittelfrüh hops

I mashed at 67°C for an hour, then at 76°C for 10 minutes (Though it did get a bit too hot at the beginning)
I filtered off the liquid, then added 2 more liters of 76°C water to sparge.
I boiled it for an hour, adding hops at the beginning, and a bit more 15 min before the end.
This left me with exactly 5 liters, which I cooled down in the snow. Then I put it into my fermenter, added the rehydrated yeast and a drizzle of honey.
I think I made a mistake setting it immediately into the colder storage room, should have probably waited over night for the yeast to activate. The next morning I saw no activity so I took it out into the warm room again until yesterday evening the fermentation started properly. Then I set it to cool again. My cold storage room is only like 17 degrees or so, so it won't be a proper lager but hopefully in the right direction, and hopefully not tasting like spoiled milk!

I do not have a way to measure ph, I'm working mainly on my meadmaking knowledge and there I never had to do that. I know three days in is too soon to make exact judgements, but it smells *exactly* like that other beer I made! A bit like sour apple cider, but not in a good way.

 

[Its6pmsomewhere]

Do you know what temp you pitched the yeast at? I'd always use nutrient with Kevik and ferment on the warmer side. What water are you using? If tap did you set it out overnight for the chlorine to evaporate or treat it in any way?

 

[LacriV]

Oh, might be worth mentioning, I am also getting a very thick brown carpet of yeast at the top, but I think that's normal with top-fermenting yeasts. (Though I actually thought this was a lager yeast)

 

[LacriV]

Do you know what temp you pitched the yeast at? I'd always use nutrient with Kevik and ferment on the warmer side. What water are you using? If tap did you set it out overnight for the chlorine to evaporate or treat it in any way?

I accidentally poured it in a bit too early when the must was on the hotter side, but now it's bubbling fine, so I doubt I killed it. I do have some yeast extract nutrients, so I can add those.
And yes, it's tap water, but we do not have clorine in it here. I've been using the same water for years in meadmaking without issues.
I am using a Kveik yeast, but not Kveik Voss. This is Kveik Stalljen, a multiculture that ferments as low as 8 degrees and can be used for lager as well. I bought it for mead experiments initially, but then thought why not make a lager with it.

 

[An Ankoù]

Now my third attempt, again all grain, is fermenting for the third day and has already developed that strong sour smell again, exactly like the first one, the cherry mead, and an apple cider I once made. The fermentation was a little slow to start this time, only starting to bubble on the second day.

What is this smell/flavour? Is it an infection? There is nothing visually wrong with it. It seems that the flavour is not yet affected, can I still save it?

For the cherry mead I used some lalvin yeast, for the first two beers a Kveik Voss, which I really like to use in my mead, and now a Kveik Stalljen, so it's not the yeast that's at fault.

I think it is the yeast's fault. It's not a lager yeast and it's supposed to give fruity, apple flavours in site of what the end of this description says.

Norsk Kveik K.22 Stalljen​

KVEIK​

Kveik is a Norwegian multiculture yeast that traditionally was used in farmhouse brewing, and passed on from father
to son through many generations. It is known to ferment incredibly fast and creating unique flavors and aroma.
This yeast is made in Norway, and is real Norsk Kveik.

STALLJEN​

The Stalljen kveik comes from Stig Seljeset in Hornindal, Norway. Hornindal is situated north of the Jostedal glacier.
Historically, the main industry in Hornindal was farming and scythe forging. The Seljeset farm was a traditional
self-sustained farm holding animals. The Stalljen name means stable, and comes from their old horse stable which
now holds a private pub and brewery.

FERMENTATION​

Stalljen ferments well from 8°C (46°F) and up to 38°C (100°F). The higher fermentation temperature, the faster fermentation.
At the highest temperature you can expect the beer to ferment in 48 hours. When fermentation is done
at low temperatures you can expect fermentation time to increase. We recommend users to add yeast nutrition to
ensure a healthy fermentation.

FLAVOR AND AROMA​

Flavor and aroma has notes of apples and ripe fruit, and a hint of cloves and anis. The intensity is medium to high at
high fermentation temperatures, and at lower temperatures it will be less intens and you will get a nice and crisp
beer similar to a lager.

 

[LacriV]

I think it is the yeast's fault. It's not a lager yeast and it's supposed to give fruity, apple flavours in site of what the end of this description says.

Norsk Kveik K.22 Stalljen​

KVEIK​

Kveik is a Norwegian multiculture yeast that traditionally was used in farmhouse brewing, and passed on from father
to son through many generations. It is known to ferment incredibly fast and creating unique flavors and aroma.
This yeast is made in Norway, and is real Norsk Kveik.

STALLJEN​

The Stalljen kveik comes from Stig Seljeset in Hornindal, Norway. Hornindal is situated north of the Jostedal glacier.
Historically, the main industry in Hornindal was farming and scythe forging. The Seljeset farm was a traditional
self-sustained farm holding animals. The Stalljen name means stable, and comes from their old horse stable which
now holds a private pub and brewery.

FERMENTATION​

Stalljen ferments well from 8°C (46°F) and up to 38°C (100°F). The higher fermentation temperature, the faster fermentation.
At the highest temperature you can expect the beer to ferment in 48 hours. When fermentation is done
at low temperatures you can expect fermentation time to increase. We recommend users to add yeast nutrition to
ensure a healthy fermentation.

FLAVOR AND AROMA​

Flavor and aroma has notes of apples and ripe fruit, and a hint of cloves and anis. The intensity is medium to high at
high fermentation temperatures, and at lower temperatures it will be less intens and you will get a nice and crisp
beer similar to a lager.

It may give some slight fruity aroma, but not like this, I don't think. Besides, my first attempt at beer I used a different yeast and also got this intense sour flavour. For the second beer I used that same yeast again, and it had no sour flavour.

The description does say it gives beer similar to lager, and that's anyway the best I can hope for without a dedicated brewing fridge or something.

Along with the beer I made a small batch of sugar wine just to test the yeast, and there the sourness is much more pronounced. It really smells like sour apple cider! (Also tastes of marzipan for some reason) In the beer the sourness is less noticeable because there is also a strong yeasty aroma, but it is there.

 

[Larse]

The description does say it gives beer similar to lager, and that's anyway the best I can hope for without a dedicated brewing fridge or something.

I suspect that's contingent on it being fermented at the colder end of the spectrum.

 

[LacriV]

I suspect that's contingent on it being fermented at the colder end of the spectrum.

I am fermenting it in the coldest room of the house, but I guess I'll see if that works. Anyway, from what I've read, if you use ale yeast for a lager recipe and ferment it as such, it should still be a decent beer. I'm not really a beer purist, if it tastes good it's good enough for me.

Just for reference I just opened an old bottle of that very first beer and it's absolutely nasty! Sour and rancid, hard to describe really. Tastes exactly like the cherry mead did, so whatever went wrong, went wrong with both. So far neither the new beer nor the sugar wine has that flavour, but the sour smell is getting stronger.
I'm still hoping that it's just smelling like this as it ferments, but I'm pretty sure this is exactly how the first beer started as well...

 

[Larse]

Sour smells and tastes generally come from infections. You probably need to examine your cleaning and sanitising routines.

 

[LacriV]

Sour smells and tastes generally come from infections. You probably need to examine your cleaning and sanitising routines.

That's what I was afraid of as well. Is there any way to disinfect it now, so to say? I could try cooling it down to 8 degrees which the Kveik yeast should be fine with, but the infecting yeast might not like.

 

[Larse]

That's what I was afraid of as well. Is there any way to disinfect it now, so to say? I could try cooling it down to 8 degrees which the Kveik yeast should be fine with, but the infecting yeast might not like.

Unfortunately I don't think so. Yeast is hard to kill, it'll just go dormant and then come back when the conditions are right.

I'd leave for a while and see if it gets worse or better. Then decide.

 

[LacriV]

Unfortunately I don't think so. Yeast is hard to kill, it'll just go dormant and then come back when the conditions are right.

I'd leave for a while and see if it gets worse or better. Then decide.

I now set in front of the door where the cold air comes in, it's inconvenient but might be the best option. I think even getting the infection to go dormant might be enough that the Kveik can get the upper hand again. It might be the best option I've got.

I'll post some updates here if it works or not.