I refused to give my name to a copper once (long story) and nothing happened. This was 20 years ago though maybe the law has changed?
Should everybody have a ID Card
- Thread starter The Baron
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One thing that has changed is you are unlikely to see a copper these days.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Funnily enough, I see them all the time. Zooming around London with blues and twos going. Never see then walking about though. It's like they've be born with wheels and a motor
Funnily enough, I see them all the time. Zooming around London with blues and twos going. Never see then walking about though. It's like they've be born with wheels and a motor
Thats the problem you see them in cars but you rarely see them on the street pounding the beat like you used to, we had one of those community police here for a while which was good she was very approachable and you often saw her walking the streets round here, i haven't seen her for about 12 months i guess the cuts did for her.
On the news the other day they said its now so bad only 8% of crime end in conviction due to lack of police they now don't even bother with calls about vandalism etc they only investigate serious crime.
I think an ID card would be very handy in Scotland..................I mean, how many times have you gone out to your car in the morning to find the windscreen covered in frost and you can't find your scraper !
For me, personally, an ID card might be useful. But how do homeless people acquire one? What about the elderly with no internet access?
At the moment I would have difficulty getting a bank account as they all want some sort of photo ID and I haven't got anything.
At the moment I would have difficulty getting a bank account as they all want some sort of photo ID and I haven't got anything.
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Dutto
Landlord.
I agree with you, but when I brought up the subject of "homelessness" at a local Council Meeting I was told that it was "a life choice" and that "homeless people choose to live that way".
Personally, I think that if I was ever homeless, getting an ID Card would probably be trumped by staying warm and dry; and sure as hell it wouldn't be my "life choice"!
Alex.mc
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Absolutely not. (In my opinion of course)
This is a rabbit hole that can easily be tumbled down, but currently you're legally required to identify yourself should evidence or proper suspicion of you require you to be able to mount a defence. Otherwise it's authority demanding a requirement of you that infringes your freedom. Erosion of freedom is a gradual process and often cumulative. A line in the sand by which debate and proper process can be maintained is needed and ID cards are a very good line.
Many many statistics show that countries that require legal ID card carrying are no better off in terms of crime, fraud or safety.
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights/privacy/id-cards/case-against-id-cards
Almost any government or authority would want to restrict freedom to be under their control and ability to give or take, that's the nature of authority. Keeping them from abusing that is what Democracy does.
Here's a thought, just to extend the logic..... How many of us with a clear conscience that we do not commit crimes or fraud would be happy with a government owned and controlled camera in their front hall or entranceway? If you don't do anything wrong why would you object? A stretch I know, but illustrates an extreme.
On the subject of rabbit holes and falling down them. There are many interesting videos on you-tube of people who have been stopped by police and when asked for their name and address have declined and asked the question very clearly, "Am I obliged to give you my name and address officer?" The word "obliged" is the key. Most of those incidents finish with the Police retreating their enquiries as it has been made clear to them they have no evidence to "oblige" the person to give the information, and they don't have a leg to stand on. Abuse of power can be huge and obvious, but it can also be minor and on the face of it unimportant.
This is a rabbit hole that can easily be tumbled down, but currently you're legally required to identify yourself should evidence or proper suspicion of you require you to be able to mount a defence. Otherwise it's authority demanding a requirement of you that infringes your freedom. Erosion of freedom is a gradual process and often cumulative. A line in the sand by which debate and proper process can be maintained is needed and ID cards are a very good line.
Many many statistics show that countries that require legal ID card carrying are no better off in terms of crime, fraud or safety.
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights/privacy/id-cards/case-against-id-cards
Almost any government or authority would want to restrict freedom to be under their control and ability to give or take, that's the nature of authority. Keeping them from abusing that is what Democracy does.
Here's a thought, just to extend the logic..... How many of us with a clear conscience that we do not commit crimes or fraud would be happy with a government owned and controlled camera in their front hall or entranceway? If you don't do anything wrong why would you object? A stretch I know, but illustrates an extreme.
On the subject of rabbit holes and falling down them. There are many interesting videos on you-tube of people who have been stopped by police and when asked for their name and address have declined and asked the question very clearly, "Am I obliged to give you my name and address officer?" The word "obliged" is the key. Most of those incidents finish with the Police retreating their enquiries as it has been made clear to them they have no evidence to "oblige" the person to give the information, and they don't have a leg to stand on. Abuse of power can be huge and obvious, but it can also be minor and on the face of it unimportant.
Depends on what meaning of homelessness is being referred to. If you mean those who do not have a house or other abode that is suitable ( for instance sofa surfers, families stuck in b&b's, that sort of thing) then that is obviously not a lifestyle choice. However, if you mean 'those sleeping rough / tramps', then as hard as it is to fathom, for many it *is* a lifestyle choice; or more accurately, they choose to put other needs way above finding or keeping a roof over their heads, usually these needs have their roots in addiction.
I think it would be only dished out to those already known...with a NI number etc. How would they begin to give ID cards to the 1000's that turn up to the UK with no ID or false ID?
The majority of families in this country are one pay day away from losing their home I think suggesting those that end up on the streets are there because they prefer to pay for other things rather than keep a roof over their and their families heads is very short sighted.
A family in the situation you outline would be housed by their local authority, indeed they would have a statuary duty to do so. Note, I'm not saying this accommodation would be ideal, or even any good, often being temporary b&b accommodation. But they wouldn't be in the streets.
What about families that split up and one patent loses their home, there are many reasons why people end up on the streets and its not all self inflicted.
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When people are down and out, they lose all self respect and develop a self hatred almost. So, sleeping rough may be seen as a choice but for the poor person affected he sees no allternative. when there is no alternative it's not really a choice, is it?
Dutto
Landlord.
Er ... Skegness Council don't have ANY "social housing"! They sold it when The Bitch allowed them to do it and they haven't built any more.
As a result, the homeless are "housed" (for many years in some cases) in small but very expensive rooms in hotels or boarding houses; sometimes not even in their area of residence!
Personally, if a Council had told me that myself, my wife and the two kids were expected to live in a single room, in a boarding house many miles from where we lived, I wouldn't be very grateful; would anyone?
No, it's all owned by a housing association (Waterloo IIRC).
Don't get me wrong, in not defending our current sh*tshambles when it comes to housing; government's of all colours have hade a right royal mess of the while system over the last 50 years. I'm drawing a distinction between those those who are homeless, and those sleeping rough. The latter need completely different assistance than the former, and for 99% of them, it ain't housing.
In my mind there are different types of homeless people. There are the ones that have mental issues and struggle with society, there are the ones that have through circumstances lost their jobs/homes and find it hard to get back on the employment ladder because of it and yes there are some that just do not want to conform to society and pay and anything towards it. The first 2 I have sympathy for them the 3rd are the type that get all of them tarred with the same brush and I struggle to have sympathy for them. I once took on a young man as a car salesman who had been homeless for 2 years living on the street and he did a good job for me but he did have a bad attitude at times which I put down to the way he had been treat whilst living on the streets by some members of the public. I totally understood this and eventually this young man lost most of that through time and was a credit to himself and reciprocated this with his performance. The moral off this story is there are some people you can help and some you can not and all homeless should be taken on their individual merit and there are good and bad in all types
Dutto
Landlord.
Just tried to find out who and what is the Waterloo Housing Association and discovered that it is a commercial venture that is employed by ELDC; this being the Council responsible for the provision of Social Housing in our area.
They refer people who require accommodation to this document ...
https://www.e-lindsey.gov.uk/media/..._-_Approved_Document.pdf?m=636996524198900000
... which makes interesting reading.
At the end of reading the document, all I can say is that I sincerely hope that neither myself or any of my nearest and dearest ever need to approach ELDC for accommodation.
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