Should everybody have a ID Card

[The Baron]

Still see a lot of people hiding behind the personal information that might be stored, lets say the info is stored safely and nobody can access this info why would people object to having a ID card there are too many people in this country who we do not know who they are and able to commit crimes that will very rarely be solved. I know it smacks of big brother but I would rather feel safe knowing that the people next door are accountable to the state and not able to do one if they do something wrong

 

[marshbrewer]

Under common law, the state may only *outlaw* things. Forcing people to carry ID is a fundamental abuse of this, as it effectively changes a relationship from only outlawing certain things to a situation where to exist, you must first obtain permission from the state in the form of ID. Thus, *everything* is outlawed except that which your ID allows.

All the abuses of ID stem from this.

However, to answer your point, what crimes are countries that have compulsory ID free from which we suffer?

 

[chthon]

Look, as someone who has lived for all his life in a country where everybody should have an ID card, and 42 years with having one (a real one is only needed from 12 year onwards), I would like to know what the real or perceived issues are that the citizens of the UK have with this?

I have never, in all this time, actually seen any abuse of this. For certain services, it is necessary that you can show unequivocally that you are who you are, to correctly receive registered mail, to date or officially identify papers like copies of diplomas, or maybe other things.

Let's say that if I don't find many examples that it is useful for, I haven't seen in practice any examples that are bad.

An ID card is one of these things that isn't used much, but if it is needed, there doesn't seem to be a proper alternative. And conflating a drivers licence with an ID card seems to me a bad idea, I loathe schemes which conflate different things which look superficially the same, but which really are something different. That is a sign of laziness.

 

[The Baron]

I am not suggesting that countries that have ID's will be free of crime or any particular type of crime I am sure there are people who will commit crimes no matter what but the police would surely have more chance of catching criminals if they are registered with the state. I have personally seen people through freedom of movement come to this country (and we do not even know they exist) commit crimes then just disappear. If they are registered when they enter the country with a compulsory ID arrangement at least we know they are here and any serious criminals would be excluded from entry

 

[kelper]

But that is true for all kinds of card schemes, and probably even more of "private" business databases than government databases. Do you use a credit card, Mister Cash, Bancontact or Maestro? Do you have cards from retail chains or department stores? They all have databases behind them, and if they are part of the same transnational goods company, what's to stop them from merging all their data on you, or to sell their data?

But the bank does not have access to my passport, driving license, car registration, fingerprints, iris scans, tax records, national insurance, benefits, CCJs, NHS records, criminal record and many other items which were proposed.

 

[kelper]

Still see a lot of people hiding behind the personal information that might be stored, lets say the info is stored safely and nobody can access

But that's the whole point! It would be accessible to many organisations. As with numberplate records access could be bought from corrupt officials.

 

[chthon]

But the bank does not have access to my passport, driving license, car registration, fingerprints, iris scans, tax records, national insurance, benefits, CCJs, NHS records, criminal record and many other items which were proposed.

So it is not about the ID card itself, but about all the data that could be connected to it, or was the proposal to store these items on it? So that looks more like the conflation of different things under the same umbrella, which is a bad idea, reeking of laziness, anyway.

 

[samale]

Sure if your going that far you may as well fit everyone with a micro chip. Or a big bar code up their arm.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Your data is already sold ie phone calls on your mobile and landline, how do these companys get your number other company employees sell them, to avoid this don't give your numbers out use email if they wont except this buy elsewere , and turn your number off in settings so it doesn't show when you make a call

 

[marshbrewer]

Sure if your going that far you may as well fit everyone with a micro chip. Or a big bar code up their arm.

As an aside, and perhaps an indicator how casually people will give up their freedom, 15 years or so back, I was on a Cisco training course. The tutor was on the original board who were designing IPV6. He was in at the real early stages, sort of RFC type of thing. Now, I don't know if you know but there was at the time a fear that we will eventually run out of IP addresses as the current system, IPV4 is limited and quite wasteful. So, they set about designing IPV6, which has more addresses than there are square inches in earth. However, they floated the idea that an IPV6 address would be assigned to a person rather than a device. As a joke, our tutor at the time said he suggested that this address be tattooed on babies at birth. People on the forum actually started to seriously discuss the advantages and disadvantages of this, until, horrified, he had to point out that he was f*****g joking.

My liberty isn't up for others sacrifice. If you want to introduce ID cards, the onus is on you to justify why this is, with cold hard facts. It is not for me to justify why you shouldn't, i.e. the bogus 'nothing to hide' argument. I haven't seen a single reason in this thread that would possibly justify such an intrusion. We are not at war. We do not need ID cards.

 

[kelper]

there are too many people in this country who we do not know who they are and able to commit crimes that will very rarely be solved

How would ID cards solve this problem? Ask burglars to swipe their card before entering the premises?

 

[Brewnaldo]

Compulsory ID seems inoffensive. A popular argument being "if you have nothing to hide..." etc.

However, that argument can equally apply to ramping up the already ridiculous levels of CCTV etc in this country, or to giving Police carte blanche to check your phone during a stop and search.

Compulsory ID is a gateway drug for oppressive governance. Get it in the sea.

 

[Winterbournebrewery]

Look at China with their social credit score ! Upset someone & your score goes down & you can’t buy certain train tickets etc... in the very near future government’s will want us all chipped.

 

[johncrobinson]

The coalition government scrapped the id card sheme on the grounds of cost as i recall.

It was supposed to come in at £10 billion,( about £200++ billion in reallity.).

 

[kelper]

The Lord's passed 275 amendments although these were defeated in the Commons. But it indicates how poorly it had been thought through initially. Had it come in, I expect it would have grown like a cancer. It's worth reading up on Wikipedia.

If most people have nothing to hide, why are net curtains so common?

 

[Cwrw666]

I have no objection to ID cards.
After all, I have a driving licence and have only once ever been required to produce it. In 48 years of driving.

 

[Clint]

How do countries with id cards (with photos) get on with stopping people whos id is hidden behind a mask?

 

[kelper]

Duh. The police will politely ask the suspect if he would mind awfully if he could remove his mask. Or hit him on the head with a weighted baton and save him the bother.

 

[foxy]

In Australia everything is linked, the tax office knows what car I am driving, where I go on holidays, how I have paid for that holiday, what I have in my bank, what my family trust is worth. I am sure it is the same in the UK. I had a problem with a customer, a phone call to a PI who was ex police, I had everything I needed to know within the hour. Corruption will never be eliminated, so worrying about ID's is not worth worrying about.

 

[St00]

Just chip everyone and have done with it. I love the idea of being able to GPS my kids whereabouts., the dog too if it's available.

It's always the same in the UK, "It'll lead to an abuse of power" and yet we allow the power to be abused. In the best case scenario, lost children, sex trafficking, kidnapping, violent crimes etc would be reduced immensely, but at the worst case it would be abused to infringe on our civil liberties. However so few people use their civil liberties for any worthwhile purpose I sometimes wonder why we have them.

Chip us all and have done with it, embrace the dark side (they have cookies).