RIMS Tube orientation

[.Peter.]

I am new to the RIMS Tube and when looking at YouTube videos with them in use some use in the vertical position and a few horizontally.

Can I ask which you use – and is one way better than the other?

 

[ChilledGecko]

I've never used a RIMS system but I'd feel happier having it in vertical orientation to reduce any risk from air locks causing the element being exposed to air and subsequently overheating / scorching the wort.
I looked at using one when I started but went the HERMS route instead as you only use hot water to heat the wort.
... and now I use an all in one for convenience and shorter brew days!

I'm sure someone with actual experience will be along soon.

 

[.Peter.]

I've never used a RIMS system but I'd feel happier having it in vertical orientation to reduce any risk from air locks causing the element being exposed to air and subsequently overheating / scorching the wort.
I looked at using one when I started but went the HERMS route instead as you only use hot water to heat the wort.
... and now I use an all in one for convenience and shorter brew days!

I'm sure someone with actual experience will be along soon.

Makes sense, thanks

 

[hoppyscotty]

Never tried it in any other orientation other than vertical. I think several reasons for this being best is that it is easier to prevent/manage air bubbles...you don't want them in your RIMS tube especially anywhere near the heating element. also if horizontal then there might be increased risk of stagnation of wort around the heating element...no evidence for this but just feels like it might be an issue.

The only experimentation I've done is to change where the thermocouple is. I started with a conventional configuration: vertical, heating element in the top half and thermocouple in the tip part. I found with this I got temperature swings and even with PID struggled to maintain steady temp. I hypothesised this was due to the thermocouple sitting right on top of the heating element and maybe picking up the temperature of the heating element rather than just the wort so change the configuration to the wort pumping through the RIMS tube into a T-piece a the top of the tube so the wort turns through 90 degrees with the thermocouple orientated horizontally in the T-piece so its not influenced by the heating element. Only used this configuration once and it worked fine, so based on a data point of one, it seems to have been a successful change.

 

[.Peter.]

Never tried it in any other orientation other than vertical. I think several reasons for this being best is that it is easier to prevent/manage air bubbles...you don't want them in your RIMS tube especially anywhere near the heating element. also if horizontal then there might be increased risk of stagnation of wort around the heating element...no evidence for this but just feels like it might be an issue.

The only experimentation I've done is to change where the thermocouple is. I started with a conventional configuration: vertical, heating element in the top half and thermocouple in the tip part. I found with this I got temperature swings and even with PID struggled to maintain steady temp. I hypothesised this was due to the thermocouple sitting right on top of the heating element and maybe picking up the temperature of the heating element rather than just the wort so change the configuration to the wort pumping through the RIMS tube into a T-piece a the top of the tube so the wort turns through 90 degrees with the thermocouple orientated horizontally in the T-piece so its not influenced by the heating element. Only used this configuration once and it worked fine, so based on a data point of one, it seems to have been a successful change.

Very interesting, thanks - may I push you for a photo of your setup please?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I found with this I got temperature swings and even with PID struggled to maintain steady temp

+1 for this.
Time delay in the feedback loop is a nightmare in control systems and easily leads to oscillations.
I use a HERMS setup and it's probably quite a bit worse with that I think... if you're getting temperature swings then it sounds to me as if your loop gain (Kp) might be a bit high?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I don't know if it's relevant by the way, but I've found the temp of the grain bed lags quite a bit behind the temp of the recirculating wort.
So I tend to 'overdrive' the wort temp a bit, especially while I'm moving between mash steps:

Yellow line is the HERMS kettle, green is the wort coming out of the heat exchanger, blue is the top of the grain bed and red the bottom

My thinking (rightly or wrongly) is that the wort spends about 5 min in the grain compared to only a few seconds going through the HX, so the temp of the grain bed is what really matters?
I suppose it follows that temperature swings of the recirculating wort might not matter a great deal because they don't really trouble the temperature of the grain bed...

 

[hoppyscotty]

Yep you're right, it's the temp of the grain that is the key thing. But clearly you want to manage the max temp of the wort to prevent overheating the wort and denaturing enzymes so you certainly need a thermocouple near the heating element (in a RIMS system) but maybe a secondary one in the mash. I'm not sure how you integrate that...they've done it with the Brewzilla V4 and the Brewtools systems but not sure how I'd achieve this.

My mash tun is insulated so my thinking is that so long as the incoming wort is always at the target mash temp, and I begin the mash at the correct temp (using the Brewers Friend strike calc. tool) then ultimately the mash temp will stabilise and equalise with the incoming wort temp. I like to run my pump at full speed to ensure that the wort is always kept moving over the heating element so that is not a parameter I can vary to manage wort temp.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Very interesting, thanks - may I push you for a photo of your setup please?

This is my new config...so the heating element is a 2" triclamp element which attaches vertically up from the bottom of the RIMS tube. The wort inlet is from the bottom. And on the top the T-piece with the thermocouple coming in from the left and the wort output into the mash tun from the right.

In my previous config I'd use a second rims tube with a long thermocouple coming in from the top, but this put the tip of the thermocouple directly on top of the heating element and quite close..it was a long thermocouple as air got trapped at the top of the tube so wanted a probe long enough to get through that and into the wort.

Only tried the new config once but worked flawlessly. I am concerned about turbulence and possible stagnation points where the wort comes in from the bottom...like a stopper wave, but haven't seen any evidence of wort scorching on the element or any other signs so hopefully its not an issue. I had considered potentially trying this new configuration upside downs so the heating element comes in from the top so incoming wort will be gravity assisted, but then you get the potential for an air bubble around the base of the heating element which would be a problem.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My mash tun is insulated so my thinking is that so long as the incoming wort is always at the target mash temp, and I begin the mash at the correct temp (using the Brewers Friend strike calc. tool) then ultimately the mash temp will stabilise and equalise with the incoming wort temp. I like to run my pump at full speed to ensure that the wort is always kept moving over the heating element so that is not a parameter I can vary to manage wort temp.

Yeah that was my thinking too, so it was really a bit of an eye-opener when I started measuring the temp of the grain bed as well as the recirculating wort.
The grain bed does eventually come up to more or less to the wort temp, but it takes a really long time - several tens of mins - which is less than ideal if you're trying to hit a specific mash step.
I was a bit worried about denaturing the enzymes too by 'overdriving' the recirc temp, but from what reading I've been able to do, they can stand a bit of extra heat so long as it's only for a short time. I did a calc based on my pump rate and the volume of the HX and found the wort only spends about 10sec in there, so it seems to be OK (certainly had no problems with efficiency so far anyhow )

 

[hoppyscotty]

I've found the brewers friend strike water temp. calculator very good. I now underlet so heat the water in the HLT to a good 7 or 8 degrees higher than strike temp depending on ambient temp, and by the time I've finished transferring water into the mash tun the mash temp is pretty much bang on so don't normally have to heat the whole body of the mash up by a few degrees so seems to be a good process.

I do struggle with raising temp to mashout temp though. Despite heating up wort to the right temp it takes ages for the mash to raise to temp. I don't think I've completed a proper mashout yet in this system. Haven't brewed a gummy beer with alot of oats and wheat yet.

 

[.Peter.]

This is my new config...so the heating element is a 2" triclamp element which attaches vertically up from the bottom of the RIMS tube. The wort inlet is from the bottom. And on the top the T-piece with the thermocouple coming in from the left and the wort output into the mash tun from the right.

In my previous config I'd use a second rims tube with a long thermocouple coming in from the top, but this put the tip of the thermocouple directly on top of the heating element and quite close..it was a long thermocouple as air got trapped at the top of the tube so wanted a probe long enough to get through that and into the wort.

Only tried the new config once but worked flawlessly. I am concerned about turbulence and possible stagnation points where the wort comes in from the bottom...like a stopper wave, but haven't seen any evidence of wort scorching on the element or any other signs so hopefully its not an issue. I had considered potentially trying this new configuration upside downs so the heating element comes in from the top so incoming wort will be gravity assisted, but then you get the potential for an air bubble around the base of the heating element which would be a problem.

Thank you very much, most interesting and a setup I shall try

 

[hoppyscotty]

What’s missing in the pic is a 2” triclamp to 1.5” triclamp reducer as the t-piece triclamps are 1.5 inch. But you get the idea.

 

[Mash Monster]

I too am relatively new to using a RIMS system and have used it a dozen times or so in various configurations. I have now settled on splitting the tube into 2 parts I have the heating element in the vertical position just after the pump which is then connected via a hose to the other half with the temperature probe which is connected to a spray ball in the lid of the mash tun in a horizontal position. It seems to work for my system ( Brew Tank from Dark Farm )

 

[.Peter.]

What’s missing in the pic is a 2” triclamp to 1.5” triclamp reducer as the t-piece triclamps are 1.5 inch. But you get the idea.

May I ask what size is the actual Tee fitting - 1.5"?
The reason I ask is it looks a lot smaller than 1.5" - can you post a photo of just the Tee piece when you have time?

 

[hoppyscotty]

the t-piece is a standard stainless steel half inch npt fitting. The thermocouple is a quarter inch bsp so I have a half inch npt male to quarter inch bsp female adapter. Then half inch npt male to 1 1/2 inch triclamp fittings.

sourcing map Pipe Fitting Tee 1/2 NPT Female Thread Hose Connector Adapter, 304 Stainless Steel sourcing map Pipe Fitting Tee 1/2 NPT Female Thread Hose Connector Adapter, 304 Stainless Steel : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

QiiMii 1.5" Tri Clamp Tri Clover Fittings to NPT 1/2" Male Thread Adaptor SS304 QiiMii 1.5" Tri Clamp Tri Clover Fittings to NPT 1/2" Male Thread Adaptor SS304 : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134166704534?var=433617513415
Could do it With all bsp fittings but npt fittings seem to be easier to get hold of and cheaper.

Mash monsters config would work just as well too if you didn’t want to faff with fittings. Let me know if you need any more detailed photos

 

[.Peter.]

the t-piece is a standard stainless steel half inch npt fitting. The thermocouple is a quarter inch bsp so I have a half inch npt male to quarter inch bsp female adapter. Then half inch npt male to 1 1/2 inch triclamp fittings.

sourcing map Pipe Fitting Tee 1/2 NPT Female Thread Hose Connector Adapter, 304 Stainless Steel sourcing map Pipe Fitting Tee 1/2 NPT Female Thread Hose Connector Adapter, 304 Stainless Steel : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

QiiMii 1.5" Tri Clamp Tri Clover Fittings to NPT 1/2" Male Thread Adaptor SS304 QiiMii 1.5" Tri Clamp Tri Clover Fittings to NPT 1/2" Male Thread Adaptor SS304 : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134166704534?var=433617513415
Could do it With all bsp fittings but npt fittings seem to be easier to get hold of and cheaper.

Mash monsters config would work just as well too if you didn’t want to faff with fittings. Let me know if you need any more detailed photos

Got it now understand - thank you very much for the explanation

 

[hoppyscotty]

Just stumbled across this. This chap runs his RIMS tube horizontally…