Pressure fermenting

[foxy]

Charlie says...... (33 minutes onwards).....

Did you watch the video to the end?
Here is another with Charlie and a master brewer I won't put a spoiler in and give the times, it is a long video and worth watching. Actually you can skip the beer tasting.

 

[Sadfield]

Nope. I won't be watching a 2hr video on the off chance there's a weak rebuttal that was too insignificant to highlight.

Nothing you have posted addresses @tommo original question, and is anything more than personal preference.

The two beersmith videos clearly demonstrates that pressure as high as 30psi to not be detrimental to yeast health and performance, and ester control by added pressure is a effective and commercially accepted way of controlling esters. White and Bamforth succinctly answer the original post.

If you want to promote esters ferment open, of you want control or suppress esters ferment under pressure. Different FV and fermentations are tools to achieve desired outcomes.

 

[foxy]

Nope. I won't be watching a 2hr video on the off chance there's a weak rebuttal that was too insignificant to highlight.

Nothing you have posted addresses @tommo original question, and is anything more than personal preference.

The two beersmith videos clearly demonstrates that pressure as high as 30psi to not be detrimental to yeast health and performance, and ester control by added pressure is a effective and commercially accepted way of controlling esters. White and Bamforth succinctly answer the original post.

If you want to promote esters ferment open, of you want control or suppress esters ferment under pressure. Different FV and fermentations are tools to achieve desired outcomes.

You won't learn anything if you don't watch it. Take other views into consideration by those that are qualified to say, You will be a better brewer for it.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I have successfully dry hopped under pressure by filing a hop bag with my hips I have magnets sewn in and attached it to the top of the fermenter with another pair of magnets then at the point the ferment ends I drop it into the ale and raise it when the time is up.

You can do that on the homebrew level when adding a hundred grams or so of hops...but on the commercial scale it's not possible. On the commercial scale you either have to invest in expensive equipment that allow dry hopping under pressure and not allowing air/O2 in, or you degass, open the top and pour the hops in risking the hops creating thousands of nucleation features that will cause the beer to instantly foam up and create a beer fountain out of the top of your fermenter.

So on the commercial scale pressure fermenting becomes more difficult and expensive and there has to be a payback either in terms of impact on beer flavour...and there isn't with pressure fermenting...it doesn't make bad beer but doesn't improve beer flavour....or enable you to produce more volume with the equipment you have...OK you can suppress the kraosen a little bit and squeeze a bit more volume in a fermenter if you're maxing it out...but its a few percent more volume so not really going to make a significant impact.

 

[marshbrewer]

If you want to promote esters ferment open,

Is that some kind of electrically heated bain Marie you are using for open ferment there? What size is it and where did you get it?

 

[hoppyscotty]

If you want to promote esters ferment open, of you want control or suppress esters ferment under pressure. Different FV and fermentations are tools to achieve desired outcomes.

True but if you want to suppress esters use a bland yeast.

I guess my interest in pressure fermenting is why from a beer flavour perspective...and I cannot no matter how much reading and research I do, find any positive benefits of pressure fermenting in terms of the contribution to beer flavour. There are some practical benefits as has been mentioned several times in this thread but they are minor benefits with alternative options.

I maintain pressure fermenting is predominantly a homebrew curiosity, which is fine...I have no problems with that I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. The point of homebrew is we all find our own ways to make the beers we want to drink and proud to share and whatever works for you works. 'end of' as the yoofs would say.

 

[Sadfield]

True but if you want to suppress esters use a bland yeast.

A very blunt tool to do the job. What if you still want more or different esters than that 'bland' yeast provides? A different yeast could change other characteristics you want to maintain, such as attenuation, phenolics, mouthfeel, etc.

 

[Sadfield]

Is that some kind of electrically heated bain Marie you are using for open ferment there? What size is it and where did you get it?

It's a 28L 200mm deep 1/1 Catering Gastronorm. I use an aquarium heating mat underneath if required. Plenty of places sell them, but I think I got it here when they had a sail on.

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/vogue-stainless-steel-full-size-gastronorm-tray-200mm/k918

 

[Sadfield]

You won't learn anything if you don't watch it. Take other views into consideration by those that are qualified to say, You will be a better brewer for it.

With no irony whatsoever.

Just point me to the part you think I need to learn.

 

[Davegase]

You won't learn anything if you don't watch it. Take other views into consideration by those that are qualified to say, You will be a better brewer for it.

Why is someone with absolutely no interest in pressure fermentation giving advice in a post which asks for advice on the basics of pressure fermentation ?

 

[The Baron]

Quite simple it comes under
4. anything else I should know
That is the power of discussion it will give positive and negative advice

 

[Davegase]

Quite simple it comes under
4. anything else I should know
That is the power of discussion it will give positive and negative advice

I believe the opening post is asking for constructive advice to enable them to experiment with pressure fermentation.
I do both pressure and non-pressure , so my advice is to try it for yourself. Completely disregard anyone who tells you that you can only do one or the other !!
Home brewing is a hobby after all so don't let someone who has no interest in pressure fermenting tell you not to try it !!

 

[MickDundee]

If you want to promote esters ferment open, of you want control or suppress esters ferment under pressure. Different FV and fermentations are tools to achieve desired outcomes.

This is the important bit. I love my Fermzilla but I’ve not used it for my last 3 brews because I’ve made a Belgian, a hefeweizen and a witbier.

 

[Davegase]

Are there any anti pressure fermenters out there who have thought of creating some sort of gentle Venturi device to create negative pressure on the fermentation ? If pressure is bad wouldn't negative pressure be good ?
As long as your fermenter doesn't implode !

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I believe the opening post is asking for constructive advice to enable them to experiment with pressure fermentation.
I do both pressure and non-pressure , so my advice is to try it for yourself. Completely disregard anyone who tells you that you can only do one or the other !!
Home brewing is a hobby after all so don't let someone who has no interest in pressure fermenting tell you not to try it !!

This.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Positives, this is 10 days old US pale ale brewed at 20c 10psi no cold crash the fridge as a larger in it

 

[Sadfield]

Home brewing is a hobby after all so don't let someone who has no interest in pressure fermenting tell you not to try it !!

I suspect there is an interest, or rather negativity as a result of cognitive bias in having invested in the installation and running of a specialised fermenting room, using a reverse cycle air con, to control esters, when a spunding valve could have done the same job.

 

[Davegase]

I suspect there is an interest, or rather negativity as a result of cognitive bias in having invested in the installation and running of a specialised fermenting room, using a reverse cycle air con, to control esters, when a spunding valve could have done the same job.

I didn't refer to anyone by name, who could you possibly mean?

 

[foxy]

Why is someone with absolutely no interest in pressure fermentation giving advice in a post which asks for advice on the basics of pressure fermentation ?

Because I gave it a try, this was before the PET fermenters came on the market easy to do and to make from a HDPE cube and using different pressure flow relief valves. Lagers taste nothing like a lager should, the ales were as has been described excellent mouth feel but lacking esters The reason for the better mouth feel is exactly as the master brewer in the video described, pressure makes smaller bubbles. The same reason I prefer bottle conditioned beer as to a keg beer. I have, by accident fermented a beer at higher than the temperature suggested on the packet at one atmosphere and the esters given off by the yeast which was CN-36 an excellent ale yeast at low temperature but the esters are rank at higher temperature.
Why do people do it, simple answer is money. We see all the blogs , and videos about how good it is, all from those with a vested interest in selling equipment needed for a home brewer to carry out closed vessel fermentation. Why don't we see respected writers of homebrew methods jump on the bandwagon of 'pressure fermenting' the reason is they have a reputation to protect. Go on Pro Brewer website, you don't see them banging on about pressure fermenting, except the the way Terri Fahrendorf suggested last couple of points raise the pressure purely to carbonate the beer. So if it really is that good, and a quick turnaround in fermenter time, why don't the pros do it?
As the master brewer on the video says to get the best results for making a beer is to do it low and slow keeping the yeast happy.
I went into a lot of breweries in the Czech Republic it was all open fermentation, went in a lot of breweries in America never saw any signs whatsoever of pressure fermenting. The best thing about the PET fermenters is the ability to partially carbonate the beer, do closed transfers and reduce any oxygen uptake.

 

[foxy]

Nothing you have posted addresses @tommo original question, and is anything more than personal preference.

See my first post. Post number 6