Please help me overthink - Temperature control during fermentation

[Cheshire Cat]

I almost have to laugh at the intensity of thought going into controlling temps. It can be important but I still remember when I started brewing over 30 years ago. I fermented out in the garage where the temps would vary 20 to 30 degrees F EVERY DAY. Now brewers think they'll destroy their beer if the temps vary by 2 or 3 degrees!

Well said

 

[Sandimas]

Do you want full temp control or just the ability to keep it warm in the colder months? If the latter, a garden trug and fish tank heater is a very simple solution that I and many brewers use
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-set-up-a-water-bath-for-your-fv.66407/

 

[hoppyscotty]

well our only job as brewers is to create the right environment for yeast to do their job If you don't have fermentation control then choose your yeast accordingly, but I've tasted many a homebrew with classic off flavours associated with lack of temp control. It's one of the least expensive things you can do to your process if you have the space for a fridge- think my first fermentation cabinet cost me about £40 to build up. Why leave anything upto chance if you don't need to.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

well our only job as brewers is to create the right environment for yeast to do their job If you don't have fermentation control then choose your yeast accordingly, but I've tasted many a homebrew with classic off flavours associated with lack of temp control. It's one of the least expensive things you can do to your process if you have the space for a fridge- think my first fermentation cabinet cost me about £40 to build up. Why leave anything upto chance if you don't need to.

How do you cool the cabinet in summer?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Sorry, It's a fridge I just refer to it as a fermentation cabinet.

 

[gyurmaember]

Do you want full temp control or just the ability to keep it warm in the colder months? If the latter, a garden trug and fish tank heater is a very simple solution that I and many brewers use
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-set-up-a-water-bath-for-your-fv.66407/

Ideally I wanna be able boil water in it, to sanitise with the same water, I'd use to liquor down the wort.

 

[Bogdweller]

I've never had the luxury of a brewing space other than the kitchen and various parts of the house at different times of the year to place my FV. I can't say in over 40 years I've ever had a problem producing good beer. I now live in a very old and very cold house and use a heat belt on the FV, a real technical step which kept my last brew fermenting at a spot on temperature day and night when the kitchen was down to single figures in the overnight freezing weather. It's great all this gear is available but if can be done without if you have to!

 

[peebee]

As far as faulty ITC-308's are concerned:

... obviously the ranting about them is going unheard, ...

I can see it now. Many of the following posts (to my post) are denials, misconceptions, etc. People instead of being outraged, bury their heads in the sand. The rest of the posts are getting on with dealing with this conversation's subject, and not getting distracted by this "diversion".

The best way I've found to deal with the issue of faulty ITC-308s is set the "cooling differential" ("CD") to 4°C. Don't worry, the temperature never gets to "set temperature + 4°C" as the fault (which seem to occur at random time intervals and temperature jumps) will never allow the temperature to get above "set temperature + 2°C". This assumes the biggest jumps are of about 2.0 to 2.5°C". Small erroneous jumps have no affect 'cos they never cause the indicated temperature to rise above "set temperature + CD".

Whatever you do, don't set the differential to 0.5°C or you'll probably never notice the fault occurring. Just perhaps mysterious very short noises as the cooling compressor is activated and quickly stopped again. If you contact Inkbird and tell them you've set a CD of 0.5°C they'll quickly tell you that you're expecting too much and the fault is therefore yours (eh ... does that add up?).

If you think the "delay timer" is helping you, you are seriously fooling yourself. The delay is to stop you rapidly triggering the compressor on and off, the controller does what it likes.



Finally: Does rapidly cycling the compressor on and off actually destroy it? So many people are using these faulty ITC-308s yet there isn't an obvious buildup of failed fridges, freezers, etc. Is this "compressor delay" business just a load of hokum?

 

[Agentgonzo]

I am very similar to Agent I do not have full control and use a lot of Kveik for that but in the winter I do have a Plate Warmer that I can wrap around and manually control the heat to a reasonable amount of accuracy but not to the point of a fridge/Inkbird controller

Having just come back from a long weekend away, the current brew had dropped to 17 degrees and fermention almost stopped. I have a wine bottle cooler/warmer that can either go into the freezer or microwave. A minute in the microwave and it was toasty warm. Sticking that inside the fermentator jacket warmed the beer by almost a degree. Doing this a few times has it back up to 21° and bubbling nicely. The central heating has taken over again now we're back.

Simple fixes

 

[hoppyscotty]

If you think the "delay timer" is helping you, you are seriously fooling yourself. The delay is to stop you rapidly triggering the compressor on and off, the controller does what it likes.



Finally: Does rapidly cycling the compressor on and off actually destroy it? So many people are using these faulty ITC-308s yet there isn't an obvious buildup of failed fridges, freezers, etc. Is this "compressor delay" business just a load of hokum?

I don't know if the delay is stopping rapidly triggering the compressor on and off. Its not an issue I'm aware I've had just trying to help the person struggling with it an thought it might be linked as they seemed to think cycling the compressor on and off quickly might be the problem so seems logical that putting a delay to the response to turning on the fridge would act as a kind of damper to the demand signal...but I'm only assuming based upon the title of the setting.

I haven't spend much time messing with the settings on my 308's. I have 4 of them and have had 2 apparently fail when both used with the same fridge, the symptoms of which are that even though the unit is in heating mode (LED on heating) the cooling plug remains live so I have both the heating element on AND the fridge on at the same time. My assumption is that this is not an issue with the Inkbird per se, and maybe my fridge is spiking as it is turned on that overloads the InkBird and causing a failure in a relay or some similar switching component. I don't know but I've never had the issue when used with other fridges.

 

[peebee]

Hi @hoppyscotty! I wrote this a while ago on "Jim's":

Re: TILT troubles!​

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:01 am

...

Let me try to describe how "compressor delay" works; or at least Inkbird's interpretation:

When the unit is first switched on, no signal is put out to the cooler until the configured delay has expired.

After the delay has expired if the temperature is above the configured temperature (+ configured margin) the cooler is switched on. The "delay" is not reset until the controller unit (not the cooler) is switched off and on again.

Pretty simplistic, I was disappointed learning this too. I'd have thought the delay timer restarted whenever the cooler switched off and some controllers might do this? ...

 

[gyurmaember]

My assumption is that this is not an issue with the Inkbird per se, and maybe my fridge is spiking as it is turned on that overloads the InkBird and causing a failure in a relay or some similar switching component. I don't know but I've never had the issue when used with other fridges.

I felt a bit guilty to use an ordinary AC contactor I found on my shelf, quickly looked up and the manufacturer quote 1-or 2 billion switches of life span, i thought lets see what happens maybe due to the dc application it'll be much shorter, but still good enough for me, for now.
Then the shock came, when my inkbird arrived, and I've read the manual, and they quote 100k switches lifespan, buy cheap buy twice, that was one of the reasons to start this thread, to figure out if anyone thought about more sophisticated methods of temp control, what will last longer than 100k switches...

I don't really understand the rants regarding the inkbird, it's a cheap out of box solution, it must have it's flows.
@peebee did you ever try to put together something similar using quality parts?

 

[peebee]

Sorry @gyurmaember , I pinched your thread a bit, I just got wound up by someone claiming the ICT-308 would protect their fridge/freezer from being rapidly cycled on and off, when in reality the ITC-308 will increase the unnecessary cycling on and off. That fault and Inkbird's refusal to correct it (apart from replace the defective controller - with a controller that is, of course, defective) has been well documented for years. Yet people still think Inkbird controllers are the bee's knees.

No, I haven't tried other controllers. I have ITC/STC-1000 controllers to replace the ITC-308s, by they use the same quality of components as the ITC-308; and the same goes for the PID controllers I use. At the-end-of-the-day, they are cheap. Though I am getting a bit fed up with having to replace yet another defective cheap Chinese power supply.

 

[Haversham]

Pah! If everyone is talking about Inkbird ITC-308, obviously the ranting about them is going unheard, ranting from various sources that is (not just me!). If this fella is referring to an "Inkbird ITC308" then he's got the audacity to suggest the "308" won't cycle the compressor too often (it flippin' well will!).


I have to admit I'm still using an Inkbird ITC-308 for helping to cool a fermenter (with a Maxi 110 clone shelf cooler) 'cos I haven't fitted the replacement ITC-1000 (an Inkbird STC-1000 variant that I hope hasn't copied the same fault as in the ITC-308). The defect doesn't make the ICT-308 less accurate, just turns it into a compressor munching demon.

I've no idea what this post is all about.

 

[gyurmaember]

Sorry @gyurmaember , I pinched your thread a bit, I just got wound up by someone claiming the ICT-308 would protect their fridge/freezer from being rapidly cycled on and off, when in reality the ITC-308 will increase the unnecessary cycling on and off. That fault and Inkbird's refusal to correct it (apart from replace the defective controller - with a controller that is, of course, defective) has been well documented for years. Yet people still think Inkbird controllers are the bee's knees.

No, I haven't tried other controllers. I have ITC/STC-1000 controllers to replace the ITC-308s, by they use the same quality of components as the ITC-308; and the same goes for the PID controllers I use. At the-end-of-the-day, they are cheap. Though I am getting a bit fed up with having to replace yet another defective cheap Chinese power supply.

It's ok, you don't have to say sorry. I'm interested in everyone's opinion.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I've no idea what this post is all about.

It started with a simple question as ever but it gets crazy and unreadable.

PS
Someone will mention Mallards and Oxidation next .

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It's ok, you don't have to say sorry. I'm interested in everyone's opinion.

After 5 replies ignore the posts.

 

[Alan_Reginato]

I almost have to laugh at the intensity of thought going into controlling temps. It can be important but I still remember when I started brewing over 30 years ago. I fermented out in the garage where the temps would vary 20 to 30 degrees F EVERY DAY. Now brewers think they'll destroy their beer if the temps vary by 2 or 3 degrees!

Yeah, people thinks that some variation make a huge impact in beer. That's for industrial brew. Homebrew it's a different thing. I live in an apartment and don't have room for a extra fridge, according to my wife (and I kind agree with that). So it's always room temperature. Sometimes ice bath.

 

[gyurmaember]

Yeah, people thinks that some variation make a huge impact in beer. That's for industrial brew. Homebrew it's a different thing. I live in an apartment and don't have room for a extra fridge, according to my wife (and I kind agree with that). So it's always room temperature. Sometimes ice bath.

I don't understand your point. Why industrial brew is different from homebrew in this aspect?

 

[RichardM]

I don't understand your point. Why industrial brew is different from homebrew in this aspect?

Commercial brewers need consistency. When you drink beer from a commercial brewery you expect it to be the same every time. One aspect of achieving this is controlling fermentation temperature.
Where as most home brewers expect variation between brews.