Parti-Gyle

[DavidHatton]

Going to brew a Wee Heavy on Saturday, 6.5kg grain bill, 15l finished batch size. going to try and get a second runnings from it, as I do BIAB total volume batch, got some two 20 litre pots from the wifes jam making, thinking I could do a second mash on the hob and dunk sparge in the second 20 litre pot, any suggestions that would make the brew day less tricky, as I intend to do second mash as I boil the main batch. have considered mash thickness of the second mash and then dunk sparge. 6.5kg in a 20l pot plus water, then sparge with the same amount, will play it by eye on the day, but if i get 3.8% from 10 litres, not that bad worth the extra working.

Cheers

 

[Slid]

Going to brew a Wee Heavy on Saturday, 6.5kg grain bill, 15l finished batch size. going to try and get a second runnings from it, as I do BIAB total volume batch, got some two 20 litre pots from the wifes jam making, thinking I could do a second mash on the hob and dunk sparge in the second 20 litre pot, any suggestions that would make the brew day less tricky, as I intend to do second mash as I boil the main batch. have considered mash thickness of the second mash and then dunk sparge. 6.5kg in a 20l pot plus water, then sparge with the same amount, will play it by eye on the day, but if i get 3.8% from 10 litres, not that bad worth the extra working.

Cheers

Obviously you only want the first runnings for the strong beer and you will need something like 17-19L to start with, depending on how much boil-off you get. If you want to get 18L out of the first mash, then 6.5kg of grain will absorb just over 5L of water, so you need to mash with 23.5L of water in total. If that exceeds the capacity of your mashing vessel, you will need a mini sparge for the first mash as well to get up to volume. I've done Parti-gyle a couple of times with the Grainfather and been surprised each time by how much is left for the second mash!

As a rule of thumb the first mash will be twice the strength of the second, but much depends on volumes.

Good Luck! You need to plan the day quite carefully and remind yourself not to get flustered. If you have any DME or LME to hand, that is your "insurance" as if either comes out short, gravity wise, you can bump it up a bit.

 

[DavidHatton]

Cheers, yes I am bang on the water volume you quoted, for the first runnings. my gravity for the first batch is 1,089 based on 70% Eff.
that's reassuring thank you, was reading an articule about Parti-Gyle that Fullers do, it was an interview with John Keeling former Headbrewer, and they apparently do two running and three boils, but blend the three worts to get ESB, London Pride & Chiswick Bitter, gravity being 1,060 1,040,1,035.
first runnings at 1,080 and second runnings at 1,020, not going to attempt it this time as I am brewing a different style but, my curiousity was sparked when I read this, would aim for 2 batches not three due to fermenting space. Luckily I am pretty well organised as I brew outside and have plenty of space.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

This thread has got me thinking, what if I did a single mash and sparge with no speciality grains and then a single boil for say 30 minutes with no hops. After 30 minutes run off half the volume and hop and boil for a further 30 minutes. To the volume you run off steep speciality grains and hops and boil or sous vide that. So two different beers from one mash.

 

[xozzx]

When making a wee heavy I always take off 4L from first runnings and boil in a pot to caramalise it (end up with a thick syrup) and put this back in at the end of the boil. This reduces the volume by about 3.5L overall but it really adds to the flavour.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One common mistake people make with partigyles is to reserve all the first runnings for the strong beer and all the second runnings for the small beer. The latter will benefit disproportionately if you give it some of the first runnings as well, even if it's just 10% or so. The first runnings have more than their fair share of the "good stuff" - not just sugar, but flavour compounds, the second runnings are a bit lacking in comparison. (and I mean "raw" first runnings, not the pseudo-decoction that xozzx mentioned).

 

[marshbrewer]

was reading an articule about Parti-Gyle that Fullers do, it was an interview with John Keeling former Headbrewer, and they apparently do two running and three boils, but blend the three worts to get ESB, London Pride & Chiswick Bitter, gravity being 1,060 1,040,1,035.

I don't want to drag this thread off topic, but for interest ~ when commercial brewers refer to parti-gyling, they mean something subtly different. For instance, in the example above, Fullers would have had two sets of runnings from 2 different, completely separate, grain bills, that would give one strong and one less strong worts. These two would then be blended in different ratios to give the 3 differing gravity beers mentioned above. The don't blend 2 runnings from the same malt bill.

 

[DavidHatton]

When making a wee heavy I always take off 4L from first runnings and boil in a pot to caramalise it (end up with a thick syrup) and put this back in at the end of the boil. This reduces the volume by about 3.5L overall but it really adds to the flavour.

Will give it a try, but with less wort as I am only doing 16 litres.

 

[DavidHatton]

I don't want to drag this thread off topic, but for interest ~ when commercial brewers refer to parti-gyling, they mean something subtly different. For instance, in the example above, Fullers would have had two sets of runnings from 2 different, completely separate, grain bills, that would give one strong and one less strong worts. These two would then be blended in different ratios to give the 3 differing gravity beers mentioned above. The don't blend 2 runnings from the same malt bill.

All input is welcomed,

 

[DavidHatton]

https://beerandbrewing.com/practical-parti-gyle-brewing/

 

[DavidHatton]

this is the original interview with John in the link above.

 

[marshbrewer]

Interesting. Looks like I was wrong. I'll have to go back and read all my historical books again now.

 

[DavidHatton]

Interesting. Looks like I was wrong. I'll have to go back and read all my historical books again now.

I was also surprised, that they make 3 beers from one grain bill, but I will be adding it to my planned brew days.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't want to drag this thread off topic, but for interest ~ when commercial brewers refer to parti-gyling, they mean something subtly different. For instance, in the example above, Fullers would have had two sets of runnings from 2 different, completely separate, grain bills, that would give one strong and one less strong worts. These two would then be blended in different ratios to give the 3 differing gravity beers mentioned above. The don't blend 2 runnings from the same malt bill.

Interesting. Looks like I was wrong. I'll have to go back and read all my historical books again now.

You're just a bit confused. Yes - partigyling means making two or more beers from blending different-strength runnings (and commercially you are almost always blending different runnings, not doing a different beer from each running on its own). Fuller's is a bit of a special case as they have two mash tuns which usually get a pretty similar mash but not quite identical (see this thread on HBT, for the main partigyle MT1 gets 7.5t pale, 600kg crystal and 15kg chocolate, MT2 gets 7.3t pale, 550kg crystal and 15kg chocolate). But the first runnings from each mash tun goes into the same copper, and the second runnings each go into the same second copper, and the blend is made up from combining the contents of the two coppers in different proportions.

I was also surprised, that they make 3 beers from one grain bill, but I will be adding it to my planned brew days.

Sometimes it is four on the rare occasion they brew Golden Pride they brew it with ESB, London Pride and Chiswick (officially withdrawn, but the same recipe gets used for various specials to satisfy the tickers).

 

[DavidHatton]

You're just a bit confused. Yes - partigyling means making two or more beers from blending different-strength runnings (and commercially you are almost always blending different runnings, not doing a different beer from each running on its own). Fuller's is a bit of a special case as they have two mash tuns which usually get a pretty similar mash but not quite identical (see this thread on HBT, for the main partigyle MT1 gets 7.5t pale, 600kg crystal and 15kg chocolate, MT2 gets 7.3t pale, 550kg crystal and 15kg chocolate). But the first runnings from each mash tun goes into the same copper, and the second runnings each go into the same second copper, and the blend is made up from combining the contents of the two coppers in different proportions.



Sometimes it is four on the rare occasion they brew Golden Pride they brew it with ESB, London Pride and Chiswick (officially withdrawn, but the same recipe gets used for various specials to satisfy the tickers).
[/QUOTE

You're just a bit confused. Yes - partigyling means making two or more beers from blending different-strength runnings (and commercially you are almost always blending different runnings, not doing a different beer from each running on its own). Fuller's is a bit of a special case as they have two mash tuns which usually get a pretty similar mash but not quite identical (see this thread on HBT, for the main partigyle MT1 gets 7.5t pale, 600kg crystal and 15kg chocolate, MT2 gets 7.3t pale, 550kg crystal and 15kg chocolate). But the first runnings from each mash tun goes into the same copper, and the second runnings each go into the same second copper, and the blend is made up from combining the contents of the two coppers in different proportions.



Sometimes it is four on the rare occasion they brew Golden Pride they brew it with ESB, London Pride and Chiswick (officially withdrawn, but the same recipe gets used for various specials to satisfy the tickers).

makes sense to split the grist.

 

[DavidHatton]

At least now I have something to scale my attempt with..

 

[marshbrewer]

But the first runnings from each mash tun goes into the same copper, and the second runnings each go into the same second copper, and the blend is made up from combining the contents of the two coppers in different proportions.

So they are combined post boil? ~ so there is no opportunity to change colour / flavour by using different inverts or hops during the boil? I really did misunderstand the process then!

 

[Ben034]

What's your recipe for this out of interest? What FG are you aiming for?

 

[DavidHatton]

What's your recipe for this out of interest? What FG are you aiming for?

First effort will be copying the ESB, London Pride & Chiswick Bitter. start simple.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So they are combined post boil? ~ so there is no opportunity to change colour / flavour by using different inverts or hops during the boil? I really did misunderstand the process then!

You can still treat the two runnings differently during the boil. For instance, if you bittered the second runnings of 1.030 to 40 IBU and the first runnings of 1.070 to 20 IBU you could get 5 very different beers out of them :

40 IBU 1.030 (100:0 second:first)
38 IBU 1.034 (90:10)
30 IBU 1.050 (50:50)
22 IBU 1.066 (10:90)
20 IBU 1.070 (0:100)

In reality you'd probably only make the middle three, but it gives you an idea of the maths.

Fuller's complicate it by combining the contents of two mash tuns before the boil on their full-length brews and since they're held up as the most common example of partigyling it's not surprising you got mixed up. And they don't use invert on their main partigyle these days (although they used to).


@DavidHatton - the second page of that HBT thread has what's claimed to be a pretty close approximation of ESB in homebrew form. You need to be careful with your yeast choices - either harvest from bottles of 1845 or Lancer, or Imperial A09 Pub is meant to be pretty close to how the real Fuller's yeast tastes (unlike WLP002 and 1968 which only USians could claim taste like Fuller's).