NEIPA overthinking?

[Buffers brewery]

I’m planning another NEIPA brew day in a couple of weeks, so have started getting the ingredients together, and giving the brew day process a bit of thought. I’ve done three NEIPA brews now and haven’t had any oxidation issues to date serving from a 5 gallon pressure barrel over 6-7 weeks. But was considering ways to minimise the risk.

I do closed transfer and flush my pressure barrel with fermentation gas beforehand, so my attention has turned to the fermentation stage. Currently, as others do, I load my dry hops in to the fermentation bucket/vessel when I pitch the yeast, so in theory there’s a risk of early oxidation of the hops while fermentation gets underway to flush the air from the headspace in the bucket. So, I thought if I load the dry hops into their container a day or two before brew day and put them in the freezer, when I put the frozen dry hops in the bucket, the few hours it would take for them to thaw (while fermentation gets underway) could reduce oxidation risks even further.

Yes, probably overthinking it, but thought I’d see what others think.

 

[AJA]

Hop pellets won't oxidise in a week. They have very little surface area, so you are probably overthinking it.
What I'd be considering most is how you transfer from FV to pressure barrel, as that is by far the biggest risk.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Never heard of oxidised hops being an issue, in any case it's the beer you're trying to protect. Any air clinging to the hops or trapped inside the compressed hop matter will be released as they soak in the wort and be purged by the normal process of fermentation as with air in the fermenter headspace.

 

[The Baron]

I have never had a problem with Neipa as long as you are very careful with transfers and dry hopping etc. I am old style type brewer but if you do a lot of NEIPA's I would advocate looking at pressure fermenting and transfer to minimise any risk.
I know "Old dog new tricks" but I would advocate pressure fermenting on this type of brew especially if a very large dry hop is used a transfer is the biggest risk in that style IMO

 

[Buffers brewery]

Looks like the consensus is that I’m overthinking it (not for the first time) and freezing the dry hops would make no difference and closed transfer, that I already do, is the way to go.
Thanks for your thoughts

 

[hoppyscotty]

We all overthink this things but it's only because we want to maximise the result!

NEPIA is all about keeping the air/O2 away. Oxidation is a real thing in these beers. I used to oxidise mine when I used to bottle condition but moving to kegging and closed transfers sorted that out. And the one time I oxidised a beer in a keg was when I used a gas line I hadn't purged and pushed a lines worth of air into the keg. I saw an immediate colour change (I.e. within hours) and aroma and hop flavour dropped off in a coupe of weeks.

 

[Pennine]

I'm not keen on the idea of leaving hops sit at fermentation temps and then being exposed to the off gassing CO2 either. I thought with your dropper you could just add them at anytime? My vote would be to leave in the freezer as long as possible.

I have had issues too though as hoppyscotty, with slight oxidation. Some other thoughts I have had for getting dry hops in are adding sulfites with the dry hop charge. Adding 100g of sugar with the sulfites with the dry hop charge to restart fermentation. Or a combination of both sugar and sulfites. It does worry me about the speed of oxidation so maybe sulfites is the best way and then shaking the keg?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Personally my view on dry hopping is never to have beer, trub/yeast and hops occupying the same space at the same time. I now always separate these processes and get the beer off the trub before dry hopping. I've not noticed any benefits from dry hopping during active fermentation whatsoever..the only benefit I can think of is to drive off air/O2 you have introduced when adding the hops, but if you have the ability to dry hop in an oxygen free way then this is defunct. I also prefer to dry hop at a lower than fermentation temperature, so 15 degrees C so have to wait for fermentation to finish to do that anyway.

Also the latest research suggests that for Hazy IPA's you're better off dry hopping after active fermentation anyway for better and longer lasting haze.



I always keep my hops in a freezer anyway until use, not because of concerns of oxidation but just so they don't dry out...if you leave bread or cheese out in the air look how quickly it dries up...no reason to assume the same wont happen with hops. I keep meaning to get a vacuum sealer.

 

[AJA]

Personally my view on dry hopping is never to have beer, trub/yeast and hops occupying the same space at the same time. I now always separate these processes and get the beer off the trub before dry hopping. I've not noticed any benefits from dry hopping during active fermentation whatsoever..the only benefit I can think of is to drive off air/O2 you have introduced when adding the hops, but if you have the ability to dry hop in an oxygen free way then this is defunct. I also prefer to dry hop at a lower than fermentation temperature, so 15 degrees C so have to wait for fermentation to finish to do that anyway.

Also the latest research suggests that for Hazy IPA's you're better off dry hopping after active fermentation anyway for better and longer lasting haze.



I always keep my hops in a freezer anyway until use, not because of concerns of oxidation but just so they don't dry out...if you leave bread or cheese out in the air look how quickly it dries up...no reason to assume the same wont happen with hops. I keep meaning to get a vacuum sealer.

I picked up a vacuum sealer for 19.99 from the middle of Lidl. Works a treat as long as the bags aren't overfilled.

 

[Pennine]

Wait I thought hops were already pre-dried for us!

 

[AJA]

Personally my view on dry hopping is never to have beer, trub/yeast and hops occupying the same space at the same time. I now always separate these processes and get the beer off the trub before dry hopping. I've not noticed any benefits from dry hopping during active fermentation whatsoever..the only benefit I can think of is to drive off air/O2 you have introduced when adding the hops, but if you have the ability to dry hop in an oxygen free way then this is defunct. I also prefer to dry hop at a lower than fermentation temperature, so 15 degrees C so have to wait for fermentation to finish to do that anyway.

Also the latest research suggests that for Hazy IPA's you're better off dry hopping after active fermentation anyway for better and longer lasting haze.



I always keep my hops in a freezer anyway until use, not because of concerns of oxidation but just so they don't dry out...if you leave bread or cheese out in the air look how quickly it dries up...no reason to assume the same wont happen with hops. I keep meaning to get a vacuum sealer.

Agree with this.

Wait I thought hops were already pre-dried for us!

Indeed, you want to stop them getting moist!

 

[hoppyscotty]

All we want from hops are the oils they contain so they can't be dry. Dry hops, i.e. hops that are totally dry with no moisture, are no good to anyone. All the rest of the stuff is just the hop oil carrying meduim.

Wont be long until we're all using the liquid hop extract.

 

[Agentgonzo]

All we want from hops are the oils they contain so they can't be dry. Dry hops, i.e. hops that are totally dry with no moisture, are no good to anyone. All the rest of the stuff is just the hop oil carrying meduim.

Wont be long until we're all using the liquid hop extract.

Depends on whether you include oils in your definition of "moisture" and "dry".

 

[Cwrw666]

All we want from hops are the oils they contain so they can't be dry. Dry hops, i.e. hops that are totally dry with no moisture, are no good to anyone. All the rest of the stuff is just the hop oil carrying meduim.

Wont be long until we're all using the liquid hop extract.

No we won't.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Depends on whether you include oils in your definition of "moisture" and "dry

Well either way if you don't look after your hops the oils will dry out thus rendering the hops useless.

No we won't.

We'll see. It's the next natural step. We've mostly made the move from whole hops to pellets, which are compressed whole hops with alot of the useless vegetation removed. All we want from the hops are the oils within them, so only a matter of time before the oil extracts are used. Makes fear more sense, less packaging, easier brew days, more effective results, far more sustainable.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Well either way if you don't look after your hops the oils will dry out thus rendering the hops useless.


We'll see. It's the next natural step. We've mostly made the move from whole hops to pellets, which are compressed whole hops with alot of the useless vegetation removed. All we want from the hops are the oils within them, so only a matter of time before the oil extracts are used. Makes fear more sense, less packaging, easier brew days, more effective results, far more sustainable.

By the same logic, we'll all be using malt extract soon.

 

[Cwrw666]

Well either way if you don't look after your hops the oils will dry out thus rendering the hops useless.


We'll see. It's the next natural step. We've mostly made the move from whole hops to pellets, which are compressed whole hops with alot of the useless vegetation removed. All we want from the hops are the oils within them, so only a matter of time before the oil extracts are used. Makes fear more sense, less packaging, easier brew days, more effective results, far more sustainable.

Have we? Got any figures for that?
I hate using pellets - damn things clog everything up.
Anyway, most the hops I use are homegrown, so maybe I should just claim everyone's moving away from buying hops to growing their own.

 

[An Ankoù]

Well either way if you don't look after your hops the oils will dry out thus rendering the hops useless.


We'll see. It's the next natural step. We've mostly made the move from whole hops to pellets, which are compressed whole hops with alot of the useless vegetation removed. All we want from the hops are the oils within them, so only a matter of time before the oil extracts are used. Makes fear more sense, less packaging, easier brew days, more effective results, far more sustainable.

No we haven't. Whole hops are widely available. T90 pellets are not compressed whole hops, they're compressed ground hops and the vegetation isn't removed. Lupomax and Cryohops are more concentrated and isomerised hop extract is widely used in mass produced, cheap, slab beers.
I agree with Cwrw that leaf hops offer advantages over pellets depending on your system and prices. On the whole, I prefer whole hops.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Why would cheap beers use a product that has had more processing in the manufacturing stages and therefore more expensive? it doesn't make any sense if you want to cheapen a product you use the most expensive version of the most expensive ingredient. Artificial hop flavourings might be used in cheap beers, but hop extracts are different. In my next few brews I'll be experimenting with the latest hop extract products and will see for myself what the advantages and disadvantages are...but one thing is for sure....they're not less expensive than any other form of hop.

 

[dad_of_jon]

By the same logic, we'll all be using malt extract soon.

I am