My beers keep getting infected

[Sadfield]

From another forum. Having harvested and used yeast from the wild, this echos my experience. Starsan, isn't enough if the cleaning isn't up to spec. Also, wild yeasts aren't always different to brewers yeast. Saccharomyces Cerevisiae can be wild, that's where brewers found it.

 

[MyQul]

I'm wondering how this could be? The grainfather boils for an hour and boiling wort gets pumped through the chiller. It remains >80c in the Grainfather.

However if there's a dirty nook or cranny it could be in there. Remember you cant sanitise dirt. Apparently ball valves can be bad for this. Dunno whether theres any ball valves on a GF. I'd suggest, if you can take it apart to clean, do so.

 

[MyQul]

The beers don't taste like a nice sour, they are more like a horrific wet cardboard taste, or earthy to the point of dirt.

How long after packaging do they taste of this wet cardboard? It may not be an infection at all. Wet cardboard tastes is an off flavour associated with oxidisation of the beer

 

[Sadfield]

True @MyQul although, oxidation alone wouldn't account for the gushers and self-fermentation. Classic Brettanomyces "Farmyard" or "Horse blanket"?

 

[Sadfield]

A good clean of the Fv and then banging a kit brew out as the next brew might be a step to pinpointing/eliminating your fermentation and bottling as the issue.

 

[jceg316]

Definitely not oxidation as last year when I was brewing the same way my beers didn't get that flavour. It happens way too soon for it to be oxidation as well.

@Sadfield possibly, if I'm honest I'm not too sure what horse blanket tastes like.

 

[Sadfield]

Definitely not oxidation as last year when I was brewing the same way my beers didn't get that flavour. It happens way too soon for it to be oxidation as well.

@Sadfield possibly, if I'm honest I'm not too sure what horse blanket tastes like.

Me neither. Farmyards can smell a bit damp and earthy.

 

[MyQul]

True @MyQul although, oxidation alone wouldn't account for the gushers and self-fermentation. Classic Brettanomyces "Farmyard" or "Horse blanket"?

Good point

 

[jceg316]

Me neither. Farmyards can smell a bit damp and earthy.

Yes, it's very much damp, earthy, tastes dirty etc.

 

[DJDave]

If the FV is stainless I'd give it a thorough scald. (which is my routine, I don't use chemicals) If its plastic I'd replace. You mentioned brew started fermenting on its own - what was the time scale for this? I know people say you can cool overnight & pitch in the morning but personally I want to get the yeast I want to use into the FV just as soon as possible which in turn means cooling as quick as possible. I want my yeast get a good start and out compete any stray wild yeast that may have gate crashed the party. Which brings me to yeast - what do you use?

 

[foxy]

Again, with no citation.

microorganism
/mʌɪkrəʊˈɔːɡ(ə)nɪz(ə)m/

noun
plural noun: microorganisms

1. a microscopic organism, especially a bacterium, virus, or fungus.

It does not matter how well one cleans when the microbe is yeast or mold. Star San cannot kill these microorganisms due to its mode of action. Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (the active ingredient in Star San) kills via attraction to positively charged cells (hence, the anionic part of acid-anionic). Once inside of a bacteria cell, the surfactant goes about wreaking havoc on cellular function. Yeast and mold cells are negatively charged; therefore, Star San is not effective against these organisms.

 

[Harbey]

I use the GF counterflow chiller too. I hate the way that it ends up storing water/wort no matter how well you try to drain it. I know you run boiling wort through but do you also give it a good clean? I use the GF cleaning stuff for 10 mins after a brew and then rinse for 10mins. Brew day, I give everything another good rinse for 10mins before starting the brew. I've also removed the ball and spring from the recirculation tap as it always attracts bits of grain and hop (maybe why your pump seems to stop).

 

[strange-steve]

It does not matter how well one cleans when the microbe is yeast or mold. Star San cannot kill these microorganisms due to its mode of action. Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (the active ingredient in Star San) kills via attraction to positively charged cells (hence, the anionic part of acid-anionic). Once inside of a bacteria cell, the surfactant goes about wreaking havoc on cellular function. Yeast and mold cells are negatively charged; therefore, Star San is not effective against these organisms.

I'm not sure this copy-and-paste from another forum counts as a citation. I find it interesting that you were quick to point to the Star San tech sheet in the other thread to support the notion that it must be air dried to be effective, yet that very same tech sheet also states that it is a broad spectrum fungicide.

 

[DJDave]

jceg316 apologies I reread the thread, I missed your comment ref reusing yeast. I wouldn't, I used to. Just to save a couple of quid and be able to use fermenting yeast to pitch rather than dried. But I did get an infected brew (acetomonas). Tsk must have missed that when checking the yeast with my shnoz.

Re using yeast is after all what the production brewers do. But they only do this for so many generations and acid wash, and examine a sample under microscope to check on yeast health and bacterial infection. Do I want to faff about acid washing? Do I have a microscope? Nope

I decided that for the saving of £2.40 (current price of Safale S-04) it simply wasn't worth the risk. I have tried yeast starters,in theory that would seen the way to go but in practice dried yeast Safale S-04 seems to take off quickly so a starter adds risk, time & effort for no great improvement. For other yeast this might not be the case.

 

[foxy]

I'm not sure this copy-and-paste from another forum counts as a citation. I find it interesting that you were quick to point to the Star San tech sheet in the other thread to support the notion that it must be air dried to be effective, yet that very same tech sheet also states that it is a broad spectrum fungicide.

Just Google anionic sterilisers there are many manufacturers, all state the same as the post I put up, if you disagree post your reply and evidence it is a fungicide. Show me a citation that it isn't. Simple.

 

[Alside101]

I use the GF counterflow chiller too. I hate the way that it ends up storing water/wort no matter how well you try to drain it. I know you run boiling wort through but do you also give it a good clean? I use the GF cleaning stuff for 10 mins after a brew and then rinse for 10mins. Brew day, I give everything another good rinse for 10mins before starting the brew. I've also removed the ball and spring from the recirculation tap as it always attracts bits of grain and hop (maybe why your pump seems to stop).

Could you not put starsan in your grain father and use it to pump through your chiller after a brewday so its not just water left inside it?

 

[strange-steve]

Just Google anionic sterilisers there are many manufacturers, all state the same as the post I put up, if you disagree post your reply and evidence it is a fungicide. Show me a citation that it isn't. Simple.

Is the tech sheet that you cited from in the other thread no longer valid?

 

[foxy]

Is the tech sheet that you cited from in the other thread no longer valid?

Please read my reply to your previous post. Is it so hard to help someone on this forum? If you want to help the OP in his dilemma do so. Once more Star San is not a fungicide, my argument on he other thread is about letting Star San dry, as quoted in their spec sheet, and others making the same product.

 

[Harbey]

Could you not put starsan in your grain father and use it to pump through your chiller after a brewday so its not just water left inside it?

Yes, I'm sure that would be fine but I think I'd still want to rinse it out before use. Probably take quite a bit of StarSan too.

 

[strange-steve]

Please read my reply to your previous post. Is it so hard to help someone on this forum? If you want to help the OP in his dilemma do so. Once more Star San is not a fungicide, my argument on he other thread is about letting Star San dry, as quoted in their spec sheet, and others making the same product.

OK, I'm not sure what you want as a citation but this is the tech sheet where the manufacturer says it's a fungicide:

Otherwise, Star San has been tested and proven effective against staphylococcus and e coli which are both gram positive, which kind of debunks your earlier post regarding the mode of action. In fact there's a video on YouTube by someone who works in this field discussing this exact thing: