My beers keep getting infected

[Sadfield]

Star San wont work it doesn't kill fungus

Citation needed.

 

[foxy]

Rule out the bot

Citation needed.

Doesn't need a citation, although you will find it if you look, doesn't kill fungus and mould plenty of information out there, if it did it would kill the yeast.

 

[foxy]

Bottling stick, no, tap in the fermenter possibility, if it starts fermenting before the yeast is pitched, then the sanitation regime is failing.

 

[GotOneBrewin]

My beers keep getting infected and it's really annoying. Each time I can can kind of work out why, but there's something new every time, and it seems if something can get infected it will and it can be hard to shake.

What is a good steriliser? I've noticed starsan doesn't seem to kill all bacteria and yeasts and after thoroughly rinsing my FVs in it, I still get infections, or twice now the beer started fermenting on its own without me adding yeast. I don't want to bleach every time I brew as it's not great for the environment and requires a lot of rinsing afterwards.

How much of a detriment is hard water on Starsan? I have very hard water where I am and this is what I use to mix the solution.

I have just read on the 'Kveik' thread you like to ferment at 40°c. Are you exclusively fermenting at these temps? Sounds like microbe heaven to me.

 

[Sadfield]

Rule out the bot

Doesn't need a citation, although you will find it if you look, doesn't kill fungus and mould plenty of information out there, if it did it would kill the yeast.

You mean you can't provide citation. It does kill yeast, do an acid yeast wash above 5°c and see what healthy yeast remain.

Odd that it used to kill mildew on grapes.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/spray-phosphoric-acid-grape-vines-23529.html

Even Fivestar say it's a fungicide.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Tech-HB2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3zcX5SB6TCWQ5Xwl-PnFvx

 

[jceg316]

if all else fails it's the grainfather.

I'm wondering how this could be? The grainfather boils for an hour and boiling wort gets pumped through the chiller. It remains >80c in the Grainfather.

I have just read on the 'Kveik' thread you like to ferment at 40°c. Are you exclusively fermenting at these temps? Sounds like microbe heaven to me.

I ferment kveik at these temps but not regular yeast.

 

[jceg316]

@foxy and @Sadfield I have previously read that Starsan doesn't kill everything, which makes sense as it's a no rinse sanitiser (and it's not a steriliser), but admittedly I'm unaware of what it can and can't kill.

 

[foxy]

You mean you can't provide citation. It does kill yeast, do an acid yeast wash above 5°c and see what healthy yeast remain.

Odd that it used to kill mildew on grapes.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/spray-phosphoric-acid-grape-vines-23529.html

Even Fivestar say it's a fungicide.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=2ahUKEwjq_9eR0PDkAhVkqHEKHeOEDZEQFjANegQIBxAB&url=https://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3zcX5SB6TCWQ5Xwl-PnFvx

If its a fungicide how come it doesn't kill the yeast? Plenty of research out there without cherry picking.

 

[Sadfield]

If its a fungicide how come it doesn't kill the yeast? Plenty of research out there without cherry picking.

Dilution rate.

 

[Ghillie]

@jceg316, Apologies for not reading the entire thread - busy at work.

Am I right in thinking you don’t pitch your yeast immediately after decanting from GF to FV?

 

[foxy]

Dilution rate.

No, it kills microorganisms it is not effective on mould or fungus.

 

[GotOneBrewin]

I'm wondering how this could be? The grainfather boils for an hour and boiling wort gets pumped through the chiller. It remains >80c in the Grainfather.

Is it possible to not use the chiller for half a batch to rule that out? My cleaning is less vigorous than yours and it all goes into my scratchy old plastic bin. I usually bottle then do a new batch the next day. FV just gets soap and warm water and I starsan before next batch goes in. Everything gets a good bleaching once in a while but I don't go mad on it. I have never had an infection in 60 batches, only had the odd bottle which looked grim.

 

[jceg316]

Couple of things to add to my process:

When the beers are done fermenting, I wash out the SS conical with soap and a sponge until its clean and there's no dirt left. With the glass demis I use warm water and oxy to get rid of the krausen ring and other dirt then rinse out.

I also reuse yeast. If a beer is infected I chuck the yeast. But my process is to take a jar (usually reusing one), wash it in the dishwasher or by hand with soap, put it in the oven at ~100C, when it starts to cool down throw it in a bucket of starsan solution. After bottling I pour the yeast from the FV into the jar and put it in the fridge.

The beers don't taste like a nice sour, they are more like a horrific wet cardboard taste, or earthy to the point of dirt.

 

[Sadfield]

No, it kills microorganisms it is not effective on mould or fungus.

Again, with no citation.

microorganism
/mʌɪkrəʊˈɔːɡ(ə)nɪz(ə)m/

noun
plural noun: microorganisms

1. a microscopic organism, especially a bacterium, virus, or fungus.

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi jceg

While the debate rages about which chemicals agents kill what (or not) and how they should/shouldn't be used ... there's a post further up the thread that I don't believe you've responded to or addressed ...

Looks like you don't have a chemical cleaning step in your regime. Things that look clean aren't always that, and as the old saying goes 'you can't sanitise dirt'. As you are using Stainless and Glass FVs, an embedded infection is highly unlikely, however there may be a film of protein, biofilm and minerals protecting bacteria and yeast from sanitizers.

Time to invest in some PBW/Oxyclean.

... I know you said you don't want to use Oxiclean on your SS kit, but they recommend PBW so why wouldn't you use that? ... organic matter stuck on surfaces, let's call that "crud", can act as an "insulater" against the chemical/thermal agents you are using to try to kill bacteria/wild yeasts. You need to be sure you're getting rid of the crud

Time for a deep clean.
Cheers, PhilB

 

[jceg316]

Hi jceg

While the debate rages about which chemicals agents kill what (or not) and how they should/shouldn't be used ... there's a post further up the thread that I don't believe you've responded to or addressed ...
... I know you said you don't want to use Oxiclean on your SS kit, but they recommend PBW so why wouldn't you use that? ... organic matter stuck on surfaces, let's call that "crud", can act as an "insulater" against the chemical/thermal agents you are using to try to kill bacteria/wild yeasts. You need to be sure you're getting rid of the crud

Time for a deep clean.
Cheers, PhilB

I did read this and have been thinking about it, I will do some further research. This thread got way more attention than I thought and sadly have not been able to reply to each post, but do appreciate all the help and suggestions. Unfortunately I have a job which gets in the way of my hobbies.

When I got my SS Brewbucket it came with a pamphlet which stated clearly to not use oxy powders. A quick search does show PBW is almost the same as oxy power (sodium percarbonate) but also contains sodium metasilicate. Having a limited understanding of chemistry, I have no idea whether sodium metasilicate affects the use on stainless steel making it safer than oxy powder.

For my SS fermenter, I'm gonna pour boiling water in it and heat sanitise once my current brew is out of there. I will try the same with glass and see how it goes, but might resort to bleaching them if necessary.

I will also get a stainless steel racking cane for transferring from glass demis to bottles.

 

[the_quick]

As last resort you can use caustic soda, but have to be really careful with that thing. Lost of brewery use it to clean and sanitise their equipment.

 

[jceg316]

Something else to add...

I went through a period of a lot of beers getting infected in my glass demijohns, then a beer got infected which was fine in my SS conical, but the bottling wand must have had a bug in it. The infection spread to my syphon as well. I ended up bleaching everything which could be bleached and threw away my bottling wand (I use a stainless steel one now which I put in the oven).

This was about 2 months ago and things were fine until my last couple of brews which started fermenting on their own. I can nuke everything again but it's pointless if it will come back.

Here's my plan:

take apart the grainfather and boil any small parts.
Give the pump a clean
Pump boiling water through the counterflow chiller.
heat sanitise my fermenters.
boil/oven cook any extra parts like silicone tubing and bottling wand
get rid of plastic I'm not using but is stored with my homebrew stuff.
before brewing clean up the kitchen space and wipe down surfaces with disinfectant.
store my mill in a bag away from homebrewing equipment.
Oven cook any bottles I haven't cooked yet.
Get a 5L bottle of Ashbeck water and mix in starsan for a starsan solution.

 

[phildo79]

I'd buy a new FV, wand, airlock etc. They don't cost much.

 

[MickDundee]

I echo @MyQul ’s sentiments re: heat.

If it’s wild yeast, Starsan alone won’t get rid of it.