Moving onto all grain - some help please

[-Bezza-]

So just to share a few extra comments for anyone who might be reading this thread and considering a bash at the stove-top BIAB.

Equipment used:
- 20l SS pan (30cm diameter) for heating water and boiling
- A Young's FV with the big srew-top lid which I used to mash in
- A very large plastic bucket from B&Q that I could use as an ice bath
- A large mesh bag
- A big, long wooden paddle (Sharing a link as the one I have is a pretty useful size - you can get a 3-pack for about £7: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003VRYQUE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

Method:

• Heated about 18l of water to 70*C in the big pan. Used the mesh bag to line the Young's FV and put about half the grain in the bag.
• Poured about half of the water into the FV and mixed everything up a bit. Didn't experience much in the way of clumping at this stage.
• Added rest of grain and water in increments, mixing things thoroughly along the way. The long, non-flexible spoon was a must for this as it was helpful to get right to the bottom of the grain to knock any clumps out. Being in a bag was a bit annoying as it gets in the way a bit. Could see this being a bit easier in a Grainfather or similar all-in-one.
• Wrapped in a sleeping bag and left things be for an hour.
• Lautering was a bit of a pain for two reasons. Firstly, although it was only 3.75kg of grain, holding the bag whilst all the water dribbles out was a pain. This is one place where I can see a Grainfather being a massive help by just lifing the grain basket out and leaving it to drain out. The second issue was that the grain has swelled and compacted and was now wider than the neck of the FV. If I was to do this again, I'd do it in a normal clip-lid FV. The floor got quite sticky. I was also amazed at how much water volume was lost to the grain.
• Just before the end of the mash, I'd heated another 6l of water in the big pan. I 'dunk sparged' by just putting the grain bag into the heated water, moving around a bit and leaving for 10 mins or so. I took a hydrometer reading of this wort and you could see just how much sugar was left. The bit I hadn't planned ahead for was what to do with the spent grain afterwards - chucked that in another bucket and managed to cram it into the food waste bin, but bigger grain bills might be a pain to dispose of.
• Combined the two worts in the big pan and got on with boiling. Took aaaaages to get up to the boil on the stove but got there eventually. Then added the hops and protofloc as required by the recipe. Things got a bit frothy just before the rolling boil, so gently stirred the head back in and didn't get any boil overs.
• Chilled in an ice bath, having covered the pan with clingfilm. It was a bit cold yesterday so put the whole setup outside to help chill down. Realised I'd forgotten to add the hops at flameout so quickly added them when the wort was at about 50*C - not sure what effect that will have! Had to replace the water once the wort was down to about 35*C as it was too warm. Cold tap water in the 'ice bath' was enough to bring wort temp down to 22*C. Didn't take that long actually, although the bucket was big and I did have a lot of ice to hand.
• Transferred to the FV using a syphon as I thought I'd be able to keep a lot of the trub behind. I was mistaken - the FV is full of muck and hop powder. Not sure if that was correct or with a bit more protofloc and a better chiller, you would expect to keep more crap behind. There was still some gunk left in the pan, along with a bit of wort.
• I gave up on the target SG of 1.050 and just topped up the FV to get a better volume without any real science. Got 1.044 which should give a nice 4.5% ale at the end.
• Pitched rehydrated yeast and put in the brew fridge at 17*C. Wort was 20*C when I pitched.

I really enjoyed making the beer 'from scratch' - the grain smelt really nice and the smell of the wort before pitching was just so much cleaner and fresher than kits. There were some annoyances along the way - lautering, the time to heat everything and the unexpected messiness of the final wort in the FV mainly.

On timings, it took about 5 hours all-in, which for a 60 min mash and 70 min boil is bad maths! Probably took an extra 45 mins to heat the initial water to 70*C, another 15 min to mash in, 30 mins of lautering, 15 mins of sparging and then another 45 mins to get to a rolling boil, followed by 30 mins of chilling. All adds up.

Would I do it again? Yes and no.

Yes in that this has all felt so much more satisfactory compared to making a kit. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and so it remains to see what the final beer turns out like, but I know I got a decent extraction rate (I calculated 64% efficiency, making some estimates for the volume of pre-boil wort). So it's now down to getting a decent ferment and hoping that the messy wort doesn't impact things. I know there'll be a lot more satisfaction in drinking this beer, assuming it's not a dud.

No in that I can pay my way out of these annoying things and just buy an all-in-one system. Would be interested to hear if lautering and heating times are improved... ?

With the 'cleaner wort' point, I understand that some people will transfer everything to the FV, trub and all, so this is just a matter of preference. Also, with the GF coming with a counterflow chiller, I'm assuming the cold break happens in the chiller, so naturally all the trub gets transferred, save for a little bit of hop particle that might get filtered out. Is that correct?

Overall, I would say give this a go if you're not able to get an all-in-one solution. But similarly, with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think that this was a necessary learning experience or stepping stone to moving to all-in-one - I'd say that if budget is not an issue and you were pretty set on investing in the shiny stuff, just do it straight away. Big takeaway is that brewing beer from grain is not difficult at all. BIAB is just a slightly faffier way of doing it.

 

[foxbat]

Lautering was a bit of a pain for two reasons. Firstly, although it was only 3.75kg of grain, holding the bag whilst all the water dribbles out was a pain. This is one place where I can see a Grainfather being a massive help by just lifing the grain basket out and leaving it to drain out. The second issue was that the grain has swelled and compacted and was now wider than the neck of the FV. If I was to do this again, I'd do it in a normal clip-lid FV. The floor got quite sticky. I was also amazed at how much water volume was lost to the grain.

When it comes to lifting the bag I get the wife to help. She holds the bag up while I squeeze the living daylights out of it. (I actually do a batch sparge as well so the squeeze comes after that). Either way, I lose about 800ml of water to a 4kg grain bill.

 

[Clint]

Doesn't a kg of grain absorb a litre of water you don't get back?

 

[-Bezza-]

When it comes to lifting the bag I get the wife to help. She holds the bag up while I squeeze the living daylights out of it. (I actually do a batch sparge as well so the squeeze comes after that). Either way, I lose about 800ml of water to a 4kg grain bill.

I was tempted to do this but had read in How To Brew that squeezing the bag is not recommended as it can introduce some harsh flavours to the beer. Another case of theory vs practice, I'm sure, but didn't want to risk it for my first attempt.

 

[foxbat]

I was tempted to do this but had read in How To Brew that squeezing the bag is not recommended as it can introduce some harsh flavours to the beer. Another case of theory vs practice, I'm sure, but didn't want to risk it for my first attempt.

I guarantee that it absolutely definitely does not result in harsh flavours, that's a myth thats been debunked many times. It does make your wort cloudy in the boil though, which has absolutely zero effect on the clarity of the beer, or even of the wort transferred to the fermenter. My pilsner wort yesterday was as cloudy as ever in the boil but after a whirlfloc tablet the transfer to the fermenter was so clear I tipped a load of trub in as well at the end because I was concerned for the nutrients needed for good yeast health.

 

[-Bezza-]

I guarantee that it absolutely definitely does not result in harsh flavours, that's a myth thats been debunked many times. It does make your wort cloudy in the boil though, which has absolutely zero effect on the clarity of the beer, or even of the wort transferred to the fermenter. My pilsner wort yesterday was as cloudy as ever in the boil but after a whirlfloc tablet the transfer to the fermenter was so clear I tipped a load of trub in as well at the end because I was concerned for the nutrients needed for good yeast health.

Good to know. I'm not disagreeing, just saying that for my first attempt at this I didn't want to run the risk having not been able to sense-check what I was reading. It seems there is a lot of 'clever' theory out there on what you should or should not do when brewing that just gets disproved in practice - only experience will help me figure out what they all are!

 

[Sadfield]

I guarantee that it absolutely definitely does not result in harsh flavours, that's a myth thats been debunked many times. It does make your wort cloudy in the boil though, which has absolutely zero effect on the clarity of the beer, or even of the wort transferred to the fermenter. My pilsner wort yesterday was as cloudy as ever in the boil but after a whirlfloc tablet the transfer to the fermenter was so clear I tipped a load of trub in as well at the end because I was concerned for the nutrients needed for good yeast health.

Regardless of whether we believe that there is a benefit to getting clear wort into the kettle, or not. What is the point of squeezing the bag? Surely any gains here are lost elsewhere through excess trub in the kettle and/or Fv. At some point the cloudiness needs removing from the wort, either by filtration during mashing or via sedimentation during wort cooling or fermentation.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[AdrianTrace]

I'm glad your first go went well - no turning back now! Each time you brew you'll find the process streamlines a bit more (and one day it'll all go **** up, but don't worry we've all been there) until it flows nicely.

These days it is hard to make a bad beer - you can choose the method that suits you best. The time factor is why I have stuck to extract plus steeping grains and not moved to all grain/BIAB, despite making a coolbox mash tun years ago - I can get a 20l brew done in well under 3 hours, which has allowed me to move away from weekend brewing to after work. Weekends are for the family.

Water goes on when I get home from work at 18:15, its hot enough to steep whilst I help put the kids to bed half an hour later. Extract doesn't need a big boil: I can stick to 15-30 minute boil times (the AA% of the hops to get enough bitterness is the limiting factor really). Cooling takes 10 minutes or less with the coil chiller. I can be cleaned up and relaxing by 9, or 8:30 if I've only done a 15l brew.

A Grainfather though... that would be awesome And shiney

 

[-Bezza-]

I'm glad your first go went well - no turning back now! Each time you brew you'll find the process streamlines a bit more (and one day it'll all go **** up, but don't worry we've all been there) until it flows nicely.

These days it is hard to make a bad beer - you can choose the method that suits you best. The time factor is why I have stuck to extract plus steeping grains and not moved to all grain/BIAB, despite making a coolbox mash tun years ago - I can get a 20l brew done in well under 3 hours, which has allowed me to move away from weekend brewing to after work. Weekends are for the family.

Water goes on when I get home from work at 18:15, its hot enough to steep whilst I help put the kids to bed half an hour later. Extract doesn't need a big boil: I can stick to 15-30 minute boil times (the AA% of the hops to get enough bitterness is the limiting factor really). Cooling takes 10 minutes or less with the coil chiller. I can be cleaned up and relaxing by 9, or 8:30 if I've only done a 15l brew.

A Grainfather though... that would be awesome And shiney

Sounds like you've got it sorted. :thumb: I'd love to be able to do a quick brew in an evening but unfortunately the earliest I'll ever be home is 7.30pm.

The thing that put me off extract brewing was the cost of the extract compared to grain: it seems to double the cost of a brew. Perhaps I need to put that thought out of my mind and focus on the time saving as I realise I'm penny pinching at this point and, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that much.

For BIAB, I could see a benefit in getting an electric sparge water heater - the thermostatic control (and possibly putting it on a timer) would mean a little less time actively brewing as the heating of water can be left to its own devices.

Maybe I'll do that before investing in a GF - get a sparge water heater (which can double up as a large kettle at Christmas) and give BIAB another go. I'm nervous about investing too much in kit and then finding Mrs Bezza wants me to sire another child.

 

[AdeDunn]

When I first started going BIAB, I bought a 33 litre SS pan. I then upgraded to an ACE mash tun boiler (ACE aren't trading any more, but Klarstein do an identical one, and a better one). Now though I use the 33 litre pan to heat up my sparge water and FV top up (as in I boil it all together, then let it cool). It's insulated from been used to mash, so doesn't cool too quickly. At some point though I plan to add an element and a tap to it. For now though I just use our cooker hob.

Fortunately, my child siring days are in the past. We already have 4 daughters, the oldest of which gave birth to our grandson 6 weeks ago. lol Where I can though, I try to take the "upgrade yourself" path so I can spread the cost. The good thing about that route is that you can re-purpose equipment as you replace it. Perfect example, if/when I get an all in one machine, my ACE boiler will be re-purposed into a sparge water heater... Or even do 2 beers at once, 1 in the ACE one in an AIO... Or split a single brew to make a larger volume etc.

Most of the time spent on a BIAB is down time though, waiting whilst things sort themselves out. Just find something else to do whilst mashing and boiling, and in reality your brew day isn't actually as long as it may seem, as you can multi-task comfortably. The only time things get busy for me is the last 20 minutes of the boil, when you start adding most of the hops, boiling the immersion chiller etc. So I just take my time and don't try to rush it all. It's like cooking in a slow cooker, you're not actually doing the cooking for most of the time it takes, the slow cooker does it.

It's the cleaning up afterwards that's exhausting... lol

 

[-Bezza-]

It's the cleaning up afterwards that's exhausting... lol

This seems to be one of the downsides to the all-in-one systems. The videos of cleaning the grainfather make it look easy, but I do wonder what it's like in practice. At least with a large pan and a fermentation bucket, there's no complex pipework and machinery to worry about!

Glad your daughter had the decency to try and even up the numbers a little!

 

[MmmBeer]

So just to share a few extra comments for anyone who might be reading this thread and considering a bash at the stove-top BIAB.

Equipment used:
- 20l SS pan (30cm diameter) for heating water and boiling
- A Young's FV with the big srew-top lid which I used to mash in
- A very large plastic bucket from B&Q that I could use as an ice bath
- A large mesh bag
- A big, long wooden paddle (Sharing a link as the one I have is a pretty useful size - you can get a 3-pack for about £7: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003VRYQUE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

Glad to read that you are enjoying your BIAB brewing. One thing I noticed when reading through this thread is that you use a wooden paddle. I have read elsewhere that wood is not recommended, as it has lots of tiny crevices, where nasties can collect. This is why all home brew paddles are plastic or stainless steel. Having said that, pre-boil it shouldn't be a problem as they would all be destroyed by the heat of the boil. Others may be able to shed more light.

I have recently moved to a Grainfather and I have found the cleaning routine quite easy. It is always going to be a PITA after five hours of brewing, but once the grain basket has been emptied, I wash the screens and pipes during the boil in a bowl and wipe down the malt pipe. Once the wort has been transferred to the FV, I clear out the hop sludge, add a few litres of warm water and wipe down the internals of the unit. After that heat some water and add the cleaner and pump this through the re-circ pipe and chiller for 15 minutes, then repeat with clean water to rinse. It take 30 - 40 minutes in total, but most of that time it's cleaning itself.

 

[-Bezza-]

Glad to read that you are enjoying your BIAB brewing. One thing I noticed when reading through this thread is that you use a wooden paddle. I have read elsewhere that wood is not recommended, as it has lots of tiny crevices, where nasties can collect. This is why all home brew paddles are plastic or stainless steel. Having said that, pre-boil it shouldn't be a problem as they would all be destroyed by the heat of the boil. Others may be able to shed more light.

Yes, the wooden paddle was pre-boil only so shouldn't be too much of an issue (look out for a thread in 7 weeks with the title "Help, my beer tastes awful". I've found all the plastic spoons and paddles to be too bendy and the sound of metal scraping on metal makes me uncomfortable.

I have recently moved to a Grainfather and I have found the cleaning routine quite easy. It is always going to be a PITA after five hours of brewing, but once the grain basket has been emptied, I wash the screens and pipes during the boil in a bowl and wipe down the malt pipe. Once the wort has been transferred to the FV, I clear out the hop sludge, add a few litres of warm water and wipe down the internals of the unit. After that heat some water and add the cleaner and pump this through the re-circ pipe and chiller for 15 minutes, then repeat with clean water to rinse. It take 30 - 40 minutes in total, but most of that time it's cleaning itself.

Good to know. I guess all brewing, even with kits, makes a mess. It did look like the GF did most of the work for you so that's a plus point!

 

[AdeDunn]

I should think that an AIO, like a Grainfather, would be easier to clean than a normal BIAB set-up, thanks to the stainless steel grain basket, vs having to clean out a grain bag. In the summer, I hang it off the washing line and take the hose to it, but in winter I have to rinse it in the bath, and usually end up soaking wet in the process... It's no secret that my hands aren't too steady (hopefully this will be getting some help soon, as saw a neurologist the other day who's instructing my GP to give me some tablets that reduce tremors! Yay! lol).

Once you've been carting 30 litre FVs (worried about active krausen? Get a 30 litre FV and worry no more... lol) full of liquid around for a few hours though, the last thing you feel like doing is cleaning out your boiler, the buckets etc... Especially when you have a few inches of sloppy hops and trub in the bottom of the boiler that you have to fish out and put in the composter..... lol On the plus side, since I took up all grain brewing I've lost weight, and gained muscle..... When I started my wife used to help me to lift the grain bag, I do it on my own now... lol

On the topic of squeezing the bag. I don't. After spending money and time on a pump etc to get clearer wort, it'd be a backward step. However with patience you can get nearly as much liquid out of the grain just by giving it a decent length of time to drain after lifting. Sure it takes longer to get the wort back up to the boil, but I start brewing about 8am and have all day to do it. I tend to take a break between the end of the mash and sparge, and boiling, so we can all have lunch, during which time the grain bag is sat draining into a bucket. One of the best bits of advice I got on here was to stop trying to brew on a clock, take it easy, relax into it, and just enjoy yourself. Pick a day where you can take your time. My wife told me straight, if I stressed out as much as I did my first 2 brew days, she would have banned me from brewing already.... She wouldn't have needed too though... One of my earliest threads on here was me asking if all grain brewing was really worth the bother... lol My 2nd AG was my famous one where I turned 14.5 litres into 4.5 litres... Was delicious though! lol

Oh, and I HATED kit brewing! That stuff is just so darned sticky and horrible! It's like having a sauna in syrup!!! lol

 

[Spoon]

I got a brewdevil and plate chiller a couple of weeks ago, managed a brewday where the only mess was cooling water on the floor (and I've a solution to that for next time).

Cleaning was easy, scrape out the bulk of the mess, take the bazooka out, pour the cooling water (now hot) into the Brewdevil with some metabisulphite, turn the pump on and give it a wipe with a sponge before draining and a quick wash with fresh water afterwards. Compared to having to wash out loads of bits of pipe, immersion chillers, three vessels, and everything else it was a revelation!

As others said as well, you've got an hour during the mash to do other chores (cut the grass?), and an hour whilst it boils (hoover/mop the house). I probably get more done around the house on brewday than I would on an average Saturday morning!

 

[foxbat]

I should think that an AIO, like a Grainfather, would be easier to clean than a normal BIAB set-up, thanks to the stainless steel grain basket, vs having to clean out a grain bag. In the summer, I hang it off the washing line and take the hose to it, but in winter I have to rinse it in the bath, and usually end up soaking wet in the process...

To clean the grain bag... don't! Just flush out the big chunks and hang it to drip dry over a kitchen tap or something. Once it's dry all the grain bits aren't sticky any more and can be shaken out like dust. Next brew day I boil my grain and hop bags in a pan for 10 mins as a quick prep for use.

 

[Duxuk]

I hang my grain bag from a rafter in the garage to drain. I can squeeze if I like, which I do but not too hard! You can also filter out a certain amount of trub when transferring to the FV. I use a piece of net curtain when bottling to filter out dry hops. It sounds like you would be better with an open topped FV. A bigger pan would be a big help. I use my 32l for mash and boil.

 

[-Bezza-]

I'm just looking at Burco boilers now as I could do with having a very large kettle for parties etc - Amazon are doing the 30L one for £84 which seems reasonable (can probably get one slightly cheaper but I know what to expect from Amazon delivery). Think I'll get one of those to use as a sparge water heater and/or mash tun or even just do a few mods to turn it into a kettle. Looks like a quick disconnect of the thermostat, add in a thermowell and inkbird, possibly replace tap and add a hop filter and I'd pretty much have an all-in-one. I'd sort of discounted this approach for lack of recirculating pump, but having done a BIAB, I'm not sure it's massively important - sure, better efficiency with a pump but looks like you can take some different approaches on sparging to compensation for this slightly in any case. Hmm...

 

[AdeDunn]

Fitting your own pump is simplicity itself, I use one of these https://www.brewbuilder.co.uk/ts5-mini-mag-pump.html and it's excellent.



Have you seen these at all? https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-ap...0L-LED-Display-Timer-304-Stainless-Steel.html

No need for modification etc (until you want to add a pump... lol). Even has a false bottom (basically it's the same as my ACE mash tun boiler, without the bag).

 

[-Bezza-]

Fitting your own pump is simplicity itself, I use one of these https://www.brewbuilder.co.uk/ts5-mini-mag-pump.html and it's excellent.

View attachment 13635

Have you seen these at all? https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-ap...0L-LED-Display-Timer-304-Stainless-Steel.html

No need for modification etc (until you want to add a pump... lol). Even has a false bottom (basically it's the same as my ACE mash tun boiler, without the bag).

Well I've bought the burco already but can definitely see a few mods going on in the future. Just need to read up a bit on what I need to do but was broadly thinking I'd get another stainless steel pot that fits inside, drill some holes in the bottom and user that as a grain basket. Could easily fashion a stand like on the braumeister for lautering and sparging.