MJ Liberty Bell yeast

[marshbrewer]

All of which, has me wondering, however far fetched. When at MJ, did he use his time to develop a blend to replicate his favourite Gale's yeast? US05 or BRY97 with S-33/Windsor

I like your reasoning, but wasn't LB originally sold by MJ as Burton Ale, or something?


It's all very confusing. I still think it's one of the best dry yeasts available. I've got better results recently using a blend of dried yeasts, but as single packets go, it's jolly good.

 

[Clint]

I tried it in my #4 or #5 batch of my Tribute clone but didn't like it as much as Gervin (wilko),so have gone back to the wilko for #6.

 

[Sadfield]

I like your reasoning, but wasn't LB originally sold by MJ as Burton Ale, or something?


It's all very confusing. I still think it's one of the best dry yeasts available. I've got better results recently using a blend of dried yeasts, but as single packets go, it's jolly good.

Possibly, or did they just drop one and launch another, leaving people to fill in that gap?

Anyhow, my theory is debunked as I've just discovered the Port66 is alive again, and I misremembered. It was Holts not Gale's yeast.

http://www.port66.co.uk/yeast-brewing-myths-ideal-house-strain/

 

[marshbrewer]

Great link; really interesting. Some of the best beer I've ever brewed, including 3% light mild believe it or not, was brewed using cultured up Wye Valley yeast; if my brewing schedule wasn't so erratic I would exclusively use British brewery yeasts cultured up from bottles.

Possibly, or did they just drop one and launch another, leaving people to fill in that gap?

I seem to remember that someone emailed MJ when they renamed it, and they said it wasn't exactly the same yeast but very similar. I wonder if this adds weight to the blend theory; i.e. they changed the proportions in the blend slightly (perhaps to improve it in some way?) so technically it wasn't the *same* yeast?

 

[dmtaylor]

Characteristics like attenuation are much different between the retired M76 Burton (76%) and M36 Liberty Bell (81%) so I think any transitional comparisons are subjective suggestions and not real.

I like the idea though of M36 LB likely being a blend of BRY-97 or US-05 with a second more characterful fruity British yeast like Windsor maybe.

 

[Sadfield]

Characteristics like attenuation are much different between the retired M76 Burton (76%) and M36 Liberty Bell (81%) so I think any transitional comparisons are subjective suggestions and not real.

I like the idea though of M36 LB likely being a blend of BRY-97 or US-05 with a second more characterful fruity British yeast like Windsor maybe.

I wonder. If a blend of S04 and S-33 was swapped to US05/S-33, we'd see those attenuation figures and a move to a more hop forward product, yet with a similar ester profile?

 

[marshbrewer]

I can thoroughly recommend using S-33 with CML Celtic.

 

[Scrattajack]

CML Celtic.

Is that the BEòIR one?

 

[marshbrewer]

Is that the BEòIR one?

That's the one. According to CML it's 'very similar' to Mauribrew draught

 

[Sadfield]

That's the one. According to CML it's 'very similar' to Mauribrew draught

Suspiciously like Safale BE-256, which despite being branded as Abbaye, is perhaps of British origin as fermentis place it close to SO4 genetically, here. https://shop.textalk.se/shop/11011/files/Fermentis/03_Fermentis_World of Taste and Pleasure SHORT.pdf

 

[marshbrewer]

All I can say is that used with S-33, you get a yeast blend that flocs ok (not like Notty or something, but the beer fully clears in the usual time), and if fermented at 22/23 gives lovely British sort of esters. These initially can be a but much (by initially, I mean right after carbing up, before any maturation time) but after a couple of weeks are bang on.

I did a sort of old ale / strong bitter; you know the sort of thing, crystal malt, decent pale malt (plumage archer), bit of melanoidin, homemade #3 invert, fuggles) with this combo and it was the first beer I've totally formulated and brewed myself that really, genuinely, stood up there with proper cask. I've done very similar recipes before and they never turned out this good. The yeast really made a great contribution.

Both s-33 and CML Celtic can be had at a reasonable price, so 2 packs in a 23L brew aren't that much more than a single pack of Windsor, so it's worth a punt if, like me, your haphazard brew schedule means liquid yeasts are often a non starter ( no pun intended!)

 

[Sadfield]

Totally onboard with blending dry for all the same reasons, plus you get something unique. I find it very interesting, however, that three companies are selling yeasts with similar attributes as British, Irish and Belgian. I'm currently blending Windsor/BE256/Liberty Bell at 25/25/50% as a house strain.

 

[dmtaylor]

Safale BE-256, which despite being branded as Abbaye, is perhaps of British origin as fermentis place it close to SO4 genetically, here. https://shop.textalk.se/shop/11011/files/Fermentis/03_Fermentis_World of Taste and Pleasure SHORT.pdf

Wow, this makes no sense to me at all. I think there must be a mistake. S-04 and US-05 are specifically named in Suregork's yeast diagrams, but neither BE-256 or Abbaye make an appearance, and the actual characteristics of the yeast don't match up with English or American yeasts at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/2021021...loads/2019/10/Brewing_yeast_tree_Oct_2019.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/2020093...11/Brewing_yeast_family_tree_nov_2018_v11.pdf

 

[Sadfield]

Wow, this makes no sense to me at all. I think there must be a mistake. S-04 and US-05 are specifically named in Suregork's yeast diagrams, but neither BE-256 or Abbaye make an appearance, and the actual characteristics of the yeast don't match up with English or American yeasts at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/2021021...loads/2019/10/Brewing_yeast_tree_Oct_2019.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/2020093...11/Brewing_yeast_family_tree_nov_2018_v11.pdf

Makes sense to me. There's a commonality in fruity esters between UK and Belgian ales, plus to a lesser degree phenolics. Look where WLP540 (Edit: Rochefort) is on Suregork.

 

[moto748]

OK, further to my post #13 on page 1, I am now drinking one of the Liberty Bell half-batch, my first taste, although I tried the S-04 version some time back. Well it looks like my anti-LB prejudice is set to continue! I know others speak highly, but it just doesn't seem to work for me, not for the first time. It's weird, nothing seems quite right about it. First the carbonation: it seemed like a bit of a bottle bomb (of course, could be just that bottle, but I'll find out if that is the case when I try the rest). Fortunately I poured into a large jug, and just left it (had another beer whilst I was waiting ), and poured it into a glass a quarter of an hour later when it had calmed down. And although it has a small head which has maintained down the glass (I've drunk about half a pint), it actually tastes a bit flat. And, worse, it has that 'muddiness' of flavour that I hate. It's just a poor pint. However, those pitched with S-04, although probably not award winners, I found had the bright clean flavour I wanted, and the carbonation was spot-on. Both half-batches had identical FGs and identical priming.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Wow, this makes no sense to me at all. I think there must be a mistake. S-04 and US-05 are specifically named in Suregork's yeast diagrams, but neither BE-256 or Abbaye make an appearance, and the actual characteristics of the yeast don't match up with English or American yeasts at all.

Fermentis are allowed to do their own sequencing and trees... And although it's nice to have a clean version of this tree, it's not the first time you've seen it...

 

[dmtaylor]

Fermentis are allowed to do their own sequencing and trees... And although it's nice to have a clean version of this tree, it's not the first time you've seen it...

Oh yeah! Now I remember! I thought it looked familiar!

I stand by my previous statements. This is either one odd mutation, or it's a mistake. I mean, this one makes banana, and attenuates >85%, which.... is weird for an English yeast.

 

[Sadfield]

Oh yeah! Now I remember! I thought it looked familiar!

I stand by my previous statements. This is either one odd mutation, or it's a mistake. I mean, this one makes banana, and attenuates >85%, which.... is weird for an English yeast.

Lallemand Verdant 'makes banana' and is supposedly an isolate from London Ale III. Which is possibly the key. In a brewery mixed culture something like BE256 would have a less dramatic effect on the overall product. Not unusual in British beer, but unusual to be used as an isolated stain.

Then we have the question of where these yeast were before industrialised brewing.

 

[dmtaylor]

Lallemand Verdant 'makes banana'

I have not seen this reported before. I've seen apricot and vanilla. Fortunately, I have a pack in the fridge and will be brewing with it probably over the Christmas/New Years holiday so I will know more soon enough.

 

[Sadfield]

I have not seen this reported before. I've seen apricot and vanilla. Fortunately, I have a pack in the fridge and will be brewing with it probably over the Christmas/New Years holiday so I will know more soon enough.

From Lallemand website, not a banana bomb, but must produce some Isoamyl Acetate.