Mash conversion at 62°C (143.6°F)

[Clarence]

Not sure @dmtaylor says he has a grain father, but agreed if grain father user should be able to do an overnight temp mash at a set temperature.

I have been brewing using an original Grandfather (30L).

The OP has a one, I think. I've never used an all-in-one, but isn't the temperature control governed by a built in thermostat? If the OP is relying on that for his mash temperature then that might be the source of the problem. Do these Grainfather's circulate the mash from time to time? If not, the heating will be quite localised, won't it.
Just some thoughts. I'm a cauldron and plastic bucket man.

 

[peebee]

Not sure @dmtaylor says he has a grain father, but agreed if grain father user should be able to do an overnight temp mash at a set temperature.

We know @StevAmos (OPer) does.

Anyway, the GF will do it. Not sure the Alpha Amylase will keep going that long? Therefore, not sure there is any point keeping the temperature steady that long. Then, you can get into arguments as whether maintaining the temperature or heating the wort from its cooled down to temperature, uses less electricity?

 

[peebee]

I've just noticed ... In "Similar Threads" below there's:

Interesting reading. Cover's "Alpha" too. I'd rather believe @dmtaylor's version though.

 

[StevAmos]

I've never used an all-in-one, but isn't the temperature control governed by a built in thermostat? If the OP is relying on that for his mash temperature then that might be the source of the problem. Do these Grainfather's circulate the mash from time to time?

Yes, the Grainfather has a bluetooth temp controller and a pump to recirculate the wort. I will check the probe accuracy over the weekend when I mash again. I am a bit worried about leaving the Grainfather pumping and heating overnight, as it is an old man now (and electricity costs), but I could do a 90 minute mash, turn it off and wrap it in a duvet.

It has been fascinating reading about mash times. I had no idea time could be a factor beyond conversion. I am getting that the conversion to the different sugars happens fairly quickly (within an hour) but the enzymes will continue to work converting the sugars to more digestible varieties if left longer.

Does anyone know a typical mash temperature and mash time used by a commercial brewery to do a standard beer, like a pale or best bitter?

 

[dmtaylor]

Great discussion everybody. You're correct, I don't own a Grainfather or any robot. If I were to mash overnight, it would just sit untouched for 8 hours or whatever. And I think it's possible that you *might* get even better results from doing it this way, allowing the temperature to drop a little bit, versus holding at an (uncalibrated!?) temperature for that long. But more experiments would be needed to determine preference one way or the other.

To answer @StevAmos new question above... I believe many/most commercial breweries mash at about 67C plus or minus a degree, for the equivalent of about 60-90 minutes, though they might say something to the effect of: "we mash in, and then immediately begin recirculating, and start running off after ~10 minutes", simply because it takes them an hour or two to transfer all the wort from mash tun to boil kettle. That's why I say "the equivalent of". So... once again, it's not super clear because you need to know how long the wort is in a Goldilocks temperature range. And if you want to know the exact temperatures, again, it can be... iffy, since the wort is moving around so much in a commercial setting.

 

[MashBag]

Now this has got me thinking.

Programmable robots could do 2 mash temps. Is there a benefit to doing an alpha rest and a beta rest.....and what order. Say 67c for say 30m and then fall back to 64c for 60m. A robotic fade?

 

[Stu's Brews]

Now this has got me thinking.

Programmable robots could do 2 mash temps. Is there a benefit to doing an alpha rest and a beta rest.....and what order?

You would want alpha to work first so it can chop the long chains up into more manageable chunks for the beta to work on.

The problem is that beta denatures quickly at the temperatures alpha would work best at. Hence why most mashes occur at 65-67 degC so you are getting overlap between the two.

 

[peebee]

Now this has got me thinking.

Programmable robots could do 2 mash temps. Is there a benefit to doing an alpha rest and a beta rest.....and what order. Say 67c for say 30c and then fall back to 64c for 60. A robotic fade?

As far as I can see (and I can still see my foot has a big toe) destruction of Beta Amylase is irreversible. For some enzymes denaturing is reversible within limits, but not beta amylase; once it's gone, it's gone. You can only step the temperature up.

 

[dmtaylor]

True, true. Perhaps much of the benefit of an overnight mash comes not from the beta amylase, if denatured, but from the slow continuation of the alpha, buzzing its way through every little piece of starch and dextrin to make more fermentable sugars. If you keep mash temperature low enough to preserve some of the beta, great. But the alpha will keep on working either way, just more slowly as the temperature falls.

In a step mash though, you really need to go upwards in temperature steps, not down. You will gain benefits as seen in the OP. If you were to go opposite and step down, the beta is probably gone and it's just alpha working at a slower rate, which again just depends then on how much TIME you leave it at that lower temperature. But the alpha can work better at higher temperatures, so then, why not just hold the temperature higher and not step it down, unless you think you might have a little beta left in there.

Complex stuff.

 

[Druncan]

If you have more time and pans than sense, you could also try Decoction mashing. The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of decoction

I could see me doing this with the floor and me covered with hot sticky wort, that is a nightmare scenario I will happily not experience,,,,,,

Imagine trying to keep our out of that,,,

 

[peebee]

... Imagine trying to keep our out of that,,,

We can tell summer tourism season is drawing to a close ...

@Druncan has got too much time on his hands again!

 

[StevAmos]

A quick update on my original post.

My Grainfather is reading about 1°C under the actual temperature of the wort (I used two thermometers, which agreed with each other).

The Nottingham yeast I used fermented vigorously and the final gravity was 1.010. The mouthfeel of the beer did not have the thickness I was trying to avoid, so that it good.

Since then I have made a Czech lager, mashing at 65°C for two and a half hours, and pressure fermenting. The reading I took last night was 1.012 and, suspended yeast aside, it tasted very pleasant.