Liquid yeast, just how good?

[Dexter101]

I would suspect liquid yeast is better because not all the desired yeast would survive the freeze drying process.
Also making a starter is not going to create yeast that no longer exist.

So yeast is less like billions of little clones, more like billions of minions, similar but with unique characters...

 

[dan125]

A cheaper option than using DME is to allow for an extra litre or so of runnings after mashing, give it a quick boil, cool, put into a plastic bottle, chuck into the fridge or freezer, and use that for your starter on your next batch.

Great idea Steve - does it keep OK for a week or so like that?

 

[peebee]

Can I ask, why are liquid yeasts so much better at creating more esters? ...

They don't have to be! I've already mentioned dried Fermentis T-58. T-58 is so estery beer fermented with it might take a year before the flavours mellow.

Might be a plus for liquid yeasts as there is a greater choice of "estery" Belgium style yeasts that might have a flavour profile you prefer. It was brewing with T-58 that made me move to try liquid yeasts.

And if T-58 isn't estery enough you can always try the dried Fermentis "Abbaye" yeast :shock:





(EDIT: If you are tempted by Abbaye yeast, aka BE-256, and use a "blow off tube" tie a brick to the end of it: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQqOfkx53YAhXJJMAKHdcXDfgQtwIILDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DaDBMHQprQq8&usg=AOvVaw3KmD799-iYXjNtv1JVhj1E)

 

[Thumper]

Yes, yeast grown is a simple sugar environment can lose the ability to ferment complex sugars such as maltose.

A cheaper option than using DME is to allow for an extra litre or so of runnings after mashing, give it a quick boil, cool, put into a plastic bottle, chuck into the fridge or freezer, and use that for your starter on your next batch.

Cheers Steve, informative as ever. I guess due to their high rate of reproduction they must evolve quite fast, so without the need to digest complex sugars the later generations lose the ability?

 

[trueblue]

You can ask. You have asked! But that's a bit mean to do so because I've never mentioned 20%.

Might of said 25%, or 30%, or even 35%. Also tagged on a "whatever" just so everyone knows what I think of these fanciful figures. And I think you've misquoted Dr Thomas: You are saying liquid yeast contributes 60-70% of the beer's flavour? So dried yeast contributes nothing?

No Dr.Thomas stated YEAST contributes 60-70% no mater what yeast. So using the best yeast for the beer you are making will make the best beer, simple.

 

[Thumper]

There's some people claiming that yeast is responsible for "60-70%" of the flavour, other saying 20%, or 30%. But surely that depends on the yeast? I can see how very estery yeasts would contribute a lot to the flavour, but surely by definition "clean" yeasts would contribute a lot less?

 

[Ciaran12s]

With regards to building a starter and aerating regularly/constantly for a 48 hour period. Does this not result in the starter having become oxidized once fermentation has finished and therefore giving that off flavour to the starter which then effects the beer being pitched to?

It obviously doesn't else it would be the technique just wondering how it actually works. Do you aerate regularly up until fermentation in the starter has finished?

 

[Dexter101]

With regards to building a starter and aerating regularly/constantly for a 48 hour period. Does this not result in the starter having become oxidized once fermentation has finished and therefore giving that off flavour to the starter which then effects the beer being pitched to?

It obviously doesn't else it would be the technique just wondering how it actually works. Do you aerate regularly up until fermentation in the starter has finished?

I think any Oxygen prefermentation is a good thing as the yeast utilise it, it is only post fermentation that oxidisation occurs causing off flavours.

 

[Thumper]

I think any Oxygen prefermentation is a good thing as the yeast utilise it, it is only post fermentation that oxidisation occurs causing off flavours.

But in a starter the yeast is fermenting, isnt it?

 

[Dexter101]

But in a starter the yeast is fermenting, isnt it?

Thought the idea of a starter was that the yeast is multiplying rather than fermenting as such... might be wrong on all of this though!

 

[Braufather]

ive done about 15 brews since i started and have used liquid every time bar once as i thought it was the done thing. Recently i used two dry yeast packets for an IPA and it came out fine so was thinking may go that route.

last time however, i used harvested wyeast for the first time and that also worked well also so could go that route. i used to use for first couple of brews but stopped as the liquid yeast arrives with the grain usually the day before i brew these days so no time, plus don't generally have DME around either.

Not sure you need starters for average strength brews with wyeast smack packs below 1060 and anyway if its over 1055- i just use two ( or maybe going forward harvested yeast instead)

i am tempted to get two mini brewbuckets and split batches to compare different yeasts methods and types.

 

[Gunge]

Great idea Steve - does it keep OK for a week or so like that?

Well that's what I did, following MyQul's advice. Being frozen solid, I would imagine it remaining sound for many months.

 

[peebee]

Thought the idea of a starter was that the yeast is multiplying rather than fermenting as such... might be wrong on all of this though!

Yes you are encouraging the yeast to grow. The yeast also has the option to "aerobically" respire to produce energy for this purpose, but it oddly prefers the inefficient anaerobic method of producing energy (fermentation) as long as there is plenty of food about (source: probably a Whitelabs information flyer).

 

[trueblue]

S-04 was one of my favoured dried yeasts for many a year. Hang on... You again! You really ought to review your beer making techniques.

Not sure where technique comes into it. I was asked to take part in an experiment in the 1990's when wyeast first came to the UK. My local shop was approached to be an importer and the owner asked myself and a few other brewers to split the same batch between wyeast British and SO-4 for comparison, at the time we did not know these where both from the Whitebred B strain. At the time my go to yeasts were cultured from bottle conditioned beers but the wyeast tasted so much better than not only the dried yeast but also the cultures I had been using for the previous 15 years or so. He told me everyone else thought the same.
I do keep a dried yeast in stock, for emergency's but only Nottingham that is OK at the best. I the try the new ESB yeast a few months ago and howanyone can compare the to whitelabs English is beyond me.

 

[dan125]

Well that's what I did, following MyQul's advice. Being frozen solid, I would imagine it remaining sound for many months.

Thanks -just noticed steve did say freezer, and fridge

 

[strange-steve]

Great idea Steve - does it keep OK for a week or so like that?

In the fridge it'll last a couple of weeks at least, in the freezer it'll last months.

Cheers Steve, informative as ever. I guess due to their high rate of reproduction they must evolve quite fast, so without the need to digest complex sugars the later generations lose the ability?

Yeah pretty much.

With regards to building a starter and aerating regularly/constantly for a 48 hour period. Does this not result in the starter having become oxidized once fermentation has finished and therefore giving that off flavour to the starter which then effects the beer being pitched to?

It obviously doesn't else it would be the technique just wondering how it actually works. Do you aerate regularly up until fermentation in the starter has finished?

Yes a stir plate aerates continuously and so it's possible/likely the starter will be oxidised. If it's a small enough volume though (<10% or so of the total volume) it shouldn't have an impact. Even better, you can make the starter a day earlier, then after it is finished, chill and decant the liquid off the top and just pitch the yeast.

I think any Oxygen prefermentation is a good thing as the yeast utilise it, it is only post fermentation that oxidisation occurs causing off flavours.

Well there's a lot of debate over this, but many brewers try to limit dissolved oxygen in the wort right up until the point where yeast is pitched because they say it causes premature loss of delicate malt flavours and a shorter shelf life.

 

[Sadfield]

SO-4 and Wyeast British ale yeast are both reputed to originate from the Whitebread B strain. The Wyeast produces a beer of depth and character and taste great. SO-4 produces a bland insipid tasteless beer that I can only compare to **** like John Smiths. When I can I drive 20 miles away to a small brewery and blag some of their yeast that is also derived from the Whitbread strain, although over 100 years ago, and is so much better than any other yeast I have tried, and it's free, but you would never believe these 3 all originated from the same place. I will not use inferior malt or hops so why use inferior yeast the cornerstone of any beer.

I think you missed my point Trueblue. If S-04 and WY1098 are the same strain, they will share the same genetics. Their genetic makeup will influence the enzymes they produce and how they ferment. If their genetics were different they would be different strains.

Esters, phenols and Ketones are usually the product of yeast stress and it is well documented that excessive yeast growth or over pitching leads to low ester production. Dry yeast packets are designed for foolproof fermentation, they are supplied with high cell count and packed full of the sterols needed for vigorous growth. In my opinion this is why they can ferment cleaner making a bland beer. Dry yeast is not an inferior product, it's just yeast. They make a bland beer when not handled correctly. Getting the best out of any yeast is a balancing act of controlled abuse. If liquid yeasts were supplied with the same pitchable cell count and nutrients, they would also produce a bland beer.

 

[pms67]

Sadfield I’m about to make a Pale Ale, would you recommend I pitch the two packets I have? I don’t want to stress the yeast and have off flavours,I would rather overpitch, I’m using quite a lot of hops.

 

[pms67]

Sorry, it’s CML Ale Yeast

 

[Thumper]

Thought the idea of a starter was that the yeast is multiplying rather than fermenting as such... might be wrong on all of this though!

Yeah, but in order multiply it needs to eat. Fermentation is just yeast eating.