Liquid yeast, just how good?

[Gunge]

You don’t need a stir plate to do a yeast starter. These kind of things help but aren’t essential. I’ve only used liquid yeast twice, but I made 1L starters in 2L Coke bottles, left the lid loose and shook the bottle every now and then for 2 days before I made the beer. Simple.

Great - thanks. That's more or less how I stepped up the 1845 yeast so not hard. I've got to ask though... if you've only used liquids twice, does that mean they aren't worth the cost and (little) effort unless brewing something which really warrants it?

 

[MickDundee]

Great - thanks. That's more or less how I stepped up the 1845 yeast so not hard. I've got to ask though... if you've only used liquids twice, does that mean they aren't worth the cost and (little) effort unless brewing something which really warrants it?

I got the yeast for free so I wasn’t fussed about reusing. If I was buying some (planning on a couple of Belgians and a hefe in springtime so probably will), I’ll make more effort to reuse.

 

[dan125]

Like others, I use dried yeast when I want a neutral yeast character, and liquid when I want something more charcterful, but one thing I've noticed about re-using liquid yeast is the significant cost of DME for starters.

 

[Covrich]

If I am doing a saison or a wiezen or wit or anything like that I will lean towards liquid..

I have even found many English styles benefit from the liquid varieties more esters and sweeter breadier flavours mouth feel ect ect

The yeast Profiles the beer so its a big deal really. Just making every beer and tossing in a Wilko / Gervin/ nottingham in, sure it will make beer but I would argue you are not always giving it much thought of what the yeast will actually produce.

Making anything hop driven just go for the neutral stuff..

I do use dry a lot of the time admittedly but If I am honest in a lot of styles I do prefer liquid it is just a little more hassle.

 

[trueblue]

Me too... I'm as tight as a camel's **** in a sandstorm, so if I spend a whole 7 quid on yeast I'll either convince myself it's justified or go on an outrage rampage.

I keep saying with proper management liquid yeast is no more expensive than dried yeast.

 

[Thumper]

Like others, I use dried yeast when I want a neutral yeast character, and liquid when I want something more charcterful, but one thing I've noticed about re-using liquid yeast is the significant cost of DME for starters.

Is there any reason you couldn't just use sugar?

 

[trueblue]

I don't hold with the drying process strips flavour out of yeast, when the dry and liquid versions of a strain share the same genetics.

SO-4 and Wyeast British ale yeast are both reputed to originate from the Whitebread B strain. The Wyeast produces a beer of depth and character and taste great. SO-4 produces a bland insipid tasteless beer that I can only compare to **** like John Smiths. When I can I drive 20 miles away to a small brewery and blag some of their yeast that is also derived from the Whitbread strain, although over 100 years ago, and is so much better than any other yeast I have tried, and it's free, but you would never believe these 3 all originated from the same place. I will not use inferior malt or hops so why use inferior yeast the cornerstone of any beer.

 

[pms67]

I like that “the cornerstone of the beer” 👍

 

[strange-steve]

Is there any reason you couldn't just use sugar?

Yes, yeast grown in a simple sugar environment can lose the ability to ferment complex sugars such as maltose.

A cheaper option than using DME is to allow for an extra litre or so of runnings after mashing, give it a quick boil, cool, put into a plastic bottle, chuck into the fridge or freezer, and use that for your starter on your next batch.

 

[foxbat]

It certainly is the cornerstone of the beer and can make or break it after all your hours of hard work. I started out using mostly Nottingham and S05 and I feel that since stepping up to liquid yeasts my brews have taken on a fullness and integrated depth of flavour that more closely replicates cask ales.

There's also the choice. I absolutely love WLP007 (Whitbread B). If you like sweeter there's WLP002 (Fullers). Want fruitier? There's WY1469. Maltier? WLP028 (McEwans). Choosing a Hefe or German lager yeast is a total nightmare because there's so many great ones.

Price-wise for a one-shot brew of an ale with OG less than 1.050 prepared with a starter it's going to cost you £7 plus 100g DME but why do that when you can overbuild a 50% bigger starter, save back 500ml in the fridge and make that your next "pack". Costs then become:

Brew 1: £7 + 150g DME
Brew 2: 150g DME
Brew 3: 150g DME
Brew 4: ...

You can keep this up as long as you dare. For no good reason I stop at 3 uses then get a fresh pack. I should probably do more because far from showing signs of age the yeast seem to be in rude health.

Next year I mean to try some of the US hop-forward strains with the goal of making WLP090 (San Diego Super) my house strain for that style.

 

[Martybhoy]

I've used liquid yeast for about 18 months. But decided to try CML Real Ale yeast for my next brew (Greg Hughes' Cornish Tin Miner's Ale) as I heard that yeast gave a very malty profile to beers.

Does anyone think this yeast would be ok, or should I use liquid yeast, seeing as I need the yeast to give some flavour input?

 

[peebee]

.....also, yeast can do other stuff like, attenuation level, mouthfeel and body. If your making a particular style you may not be able to find a dried equivalent that does everything you want, all in one yeast. Whereas with liquid yeast there are hundreds of strains, so your more likely to find one that does everything you want it to

I was careful to say "comparing a liquid British ale yeast with a decent dried British ale yeast". Compare WLP002 with dried Fermentis T-58 and you will notice big differences.

Choice. Look at the popular dried "Nottingham" and "Windsor" yeasts. What happened to the "London" and "Manchester" yeasts by the same manufacturer? Discontinued due to lack of interest (okay "London" has been resurrected as "London ESB"). What will happen to the liquid yeasts? Half of them will soon disappear as litigation forces Whitelabs under, and then...

People invest a lot of time in their liquid yeasts so they are bound to believe them better than dried. But for someone not long started out liquid yeasts are a quite un-necessary complication and they are better off with dried. And the beer they will create will be every bit as decent as if they used liquid (subtly different, but just as good).

I recently switched to liquid yeast by the way. "Traumatic"? I've had pumps and valves blocked by rampant growth of yeast, yet a couple of months later the same yeast (obviously less viable) required an extra day on the stir plates to get it going. The pitching calculators are all from some fairy land. Should new start ups be faced with this?

 

[peebee]

Rubbish, Yeast is responsible up to 60-70% of flavour. ...

"60-70%". Really?

Have you tried adding malt and hops to your recipes?

 

[peebee]

... SO-4 produces a bland insipid tasteless beer that I can only compare to **** like John Smiths. ...

S-04 was one of my favoured dried yeasts for many a year. Hang on... You again! You really ought to review your beer making techniques.

 

[trueblue]

"60-70%". Really?

Have you tried adding malt and hops to your recipes?

Yes really. I had a great conversation with Dr Keith Thomas senior lecturer from brewlabs/Sunderland university and probably the leading expert in brewing biology in the UK. At a brewing festival a few years back he gave a lecture and I spoke to him after and he confirmed what I had read elsewhere. If you google yeast effect on flavour this is the first piece that comes up http://blog.beeriety.com/2010/02/24/how-yeast-effects-beer-flavor/

Can I ask where you got your 20% figure.

 

[Dexter101]

Can I ask, why are liquid yeasts so much better at creating more esters? Would you get a better result with dried yeasts if you spent the time to make a starter with them? I know its not worth it for yeast quantities, but could you say make up an over sized starter with dried yeast, pitch half and save the other half and get better results?

I have never used liquid yeasts and am interested in doing so in the future but for the time being have a good stock of dried yeast.

 

[Gunge]

I have never used liquid yeasts and am interested in doing so in the future but for the time being have a good stock of dried yeast.

Lol I've just received 10 various CML yeasts to add to the 4 left in the fridge but ye, I'll try some liquid yeast when all those have gone, if only to sate my curiosity.

 

[Saisonator]

Can I ask, why are liquid yeasts so much better at creating more esters? Would you get a better result with dried yeasts if you spent the time to make a starter with them? I know its not worth it for yeast quantities, but could you say make up an over sized starter with dried yeast, pitch half and save the other half and get better results?

I have never used liquid yeasts and am interested in doing so in the future but for the time being have a good stock of dried yeast.

I would suspect liquid yeast is better because not all the desired yeast would survive the freeze drying process.
Also making a starter is not going to create yeast that no longer exist.

 

[peebee]

... Can I ask where you got your 20% figure.

You can ask. You have asked! But that's a bit mean to do so because I've never mentioned 20%.

Might of said 25%, or 30%, or even 35%. Also tagged on a "whatever" just so everyone knows what I think of these fanciful figures. And I think you've misquoted Dr Thomas: You are saying liquid yeast contributes 60-70% of the beer's flavour? So dried yeast contributes nothing?

 

[GerritT]

Rubbish, Yeast is responsible up to 60-70% of flavour.

Anyone can prepare, sanitation needs to be very good but any brewer should be used to that.

I get at least 6 brews per pack and have had up to 10 wirth some strains. With proper management it works out cheaper.

One is live and one is dried, think the difference between real mash potato and smash or fresh noodles and pot noodles.

If your happy with a second rate inferior product fine personally if I am spending 5 hours or so making a beer I want to make it the best I can and using the best ingredients is paramount.

For a 5-gallon brew your arguments hold water, but there are plenty of homebrewers that stick to 1 or 2 gallons.