Liquid Yeast - am I missing something?

[DavidDetroit]

Good that the beer got going in just under three days. I don't get that.
I rechecked the thread for what the fermentation temperature was and didn't see it though I saw the yeast and wort were brought to 20°C but nothing on the room temperature. Unless 20° was the fermenting temp.

 

[AnimatedGIF]

Yes, fermentation temp was 20 degrees too. Held at 20 degrees with an inkbord and heat mat. It's been going quite vigorously since it did finally get going!
Really excited to see how this one turns out!

 

[DavidDetroit]

20 degrees

that's a good temp. glad to hear, again, that it started up. have you any conclusion as to the 60+ hours?
I've never seen nor heard of it.
cheers.

 

[moto748]

Yes it's distinctly Belgian. No getting round that. I've added a bit of it to English and American yeasts in hoppy beers and liked the results. It definitely has an effect on the hops.

Thanks for that. I may not bother, then; it's not my favourite style.

 

[Oneflewover]

Thanks for that. I may not bother, then; it's not my favourite style.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/june-forum-comp-dark-beers.87471/page-7#post-928005
There's a recipe for 'Spring Stout' there using t-58 and Chinook hops. It definitely does something with the hops, wouldn't say it is overly 'belgiany' - not hugely attenuative for a start. I think that there's quite a lengthy thread on these forums somewhere about t-58 and how it may be more English than Belgian. I'd tend to agree

 

[AnimatedGIF]

that's a good temp. glad to hear, again, that it started up. have you any conclusion as to the 60+ hours?
I've never seen nor heard of it.
cheers.

I believe from the replies here and an email from the supplier that it is likely because the yeast was close to it's best before date date. I gather I should really have made a starter with it. I have a saison coming up next and the yeast is best before May so I'll make a starter for it and see how long it takes to get going.

 

[Oneflewover]

I believe from the replies here and an email from the supplier that it is likely because the yeast was close to it's best before date date. I gather I should really have made a starter with it. I have a saison coming up next and the yeast is best before May so I'll make a starter for it and see how long it takes to get going.

Keep a bit of the starter back (I have several 250ml plastic pop bottles for this purpose) then keep in the fridge to build a starter from for next time

 

[clib]

Keep a bit of the starter back (I have several 250ml plastic pop bottles for this purpose) then keep in the fridge to build a starter from for next time

This is a good idea. I tend to just retrieve some yeast from the FV with the first batch, preferably cropped off the top of the beer around peak fermentation time. Not always an option, sometimes just the sediment after bottling. I keep it in pesto jars, with a layer of beer covering the yeast. ! Then for later brews I take a little from the jar to make a starter. Or all the yeast from a jar, depends how much there is.

If I'm harvesting sediment I leave a little beer in the bucket and swirl it all together and transfer to a sterile jug, leave it a minute or two and then pour the liquid portion into pesto jars. And chuck the gunk. This way you get mostly yeast, the heavy stuff that sinks is the debris from hops and grains that you don't want. And which makes you think you have more yeast than you really have! The jar will settle out leaving mostly beer on top of a layer of mostly yeast. Not my photo this...

 

[DavidDetroit]

best before date date

thanks. that does make sense.

 

[chthon]

Yes it's distinctly Belgian. No getting round that. I've added a bit of it to English and American yeasts in hoppy beers and liked the results. It definitely has an effect on the hops.

Well, not really. I have tasted like 320 Belgian beers (registered on Untappd) and some 250 Dutch beers (they have a nice selection of both US-like craft beers, and Belgian-like craft beers), big names, small names, local names, dark, amber and blond, and the only beers that taste like T-58 are those of the Struise Brouwers. I have a selection of yeasts that I propagated from the botlle (St.-Bernardus, Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay) and none of the beers made with them taste like T-58. So, I am starting to wonder where T-58 really originated.

 

[clib]

Well, not really. I have tasted like 320 Belgian beers (registered on Untappd) and some 250 Dutch beers (they have a nice selection of both US-like craft beers, and Belgian-like craft beers), big names, small names, local names, dark, amber and blond, and the only beers that taste like T-58 are those of the Struise Brouwers. I have a selection of yeasts that I propagated from the botlle (St.-Bernardus, Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay) and none of the beers made with them taste like T-58. So, I am starting to wonder where T-58 really originated.

I hear what you're saying. It's a unique yeast. And genetically related to Windsor apparently. But you aren't going to make an English, American or German style beer with it in my opinion. As Fermentis says, quite fairly I think...

"Specialty brewer’s yeast selected for its strong fermentation character, intense fruity and phenolic flavors – especially banana, clove and peppery notes. Suitable for a great variety of wheat-base beers and fruity-spicy oriented styles."

People use it to brew Belgian styles. I grant you it is different from your Rocheforts and Chimays etc, but there are many different yeasts in Belgium and that phenolic spicy fruity thing is a common feature. No?

 

[Sadfield]

Well, not really. I have tasted like 320 Belgian beers (registered on Untappd) and some 250 Dutch beers (they have a nice selection of both US-like craft beers, and Belgian-like craft beers), big names, small names, local names, dark, amber and blond, and the only beers that taste like T-58 are those of the Struise Brouwers. I have a selection of yeasts that I propagated from the botlle (St.-Bernardus, Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay) and none of the beers made with them taste like T-58. So, I am starting to wonder where T-58 really originated.

One of the Wit breweries, Hoegaarden maybe?

 

[chthon]

I hear what you're saying. It's a unique yeast. And genetically related to Windsor apparently. But you aren't going to make an English, American or German style beer with it in my opinion. As Fermentis says, quite fairly I think...

"Specialty brewer’s yeast selected for its strong fermentation character, intense fruity and phenolic flavors – especially banana, clove and peppery notes. Suitable for a great variety of wheat-base beers and fruity-spicy oriented styles."

People use it to brew Belgian styles. I grant you it is different from your Rocheforts and Chimays etc, but there are many different yeasts in Belgium and that phenolic spicy fruity thing is a common feature. No?

That's the thing: I don't get banana or clove, or even something spicy from it.

Brews I have done which gave specific flavors and aromas:

• Mangrove Jack's M20 gives very nice cloves. I haven't only brewed weizen with it, but also a very nice Leffe clone (which I had the pleasure to compare favorably with fresh draught Leffe)
• M31, Bulldog Trapix and Westmalle gave very nice banana aromas and flavors, but you do have to underpitch them a bit

Beers I tasted with specific aromas and flavours, I refer mostly to Kasteel Donker, which is a dark strong beer with definitely a cloves aroma and taste. It does not seem possible to replicate this with T-58.

As for peppery, I haven't been able to find this in any beer yet. M27/M29 is supposedly giving this, but I haven't been able to reach the necessary fermentation temperatures (not even in 2020, when I fermented a saison in spring in rather warm room).

I don't think I will use T-58 again, there are other very nice dry yeasts, and I had much success with propagating yeast from bottles (and I haven't even a stir plate, I all do it manually).

 

[clib]

That's the thing: I don't get banana or clove, or even something spicy from it.

Brews I have done which gave specific flavors and aromas:

• Mangrove Jack's M20 gives very nice cloves. I haven't only brewed weizen with it, but also a very nice Leffe clone (which I had the pleasure to compare favorably with fresh draught Leffe)
• M31, Bulldog Trapix and Westmalle gave very nice banana aromas and flavors, but you do have to underpitch them a bit

Beers I tasted with specific aromas and flavours, I refer mostly to Kasteel Donker, which is a dark strong beer with definitely a cloves aroma and taste. It does not seem possible to replicate this with T-58.

As for peppery, I haven't been able to find this in any beer yet. M27/M29 is supposedly giving this, but I haven't been able to reach the necessary fermentation temperatures (not even in 2020, when I fermented a saison in spring in rather warm room).

I don't think I will use T-58 again, there are other very nice dry yeasts, and I had much success with propagating yeast from bottles (and I haven't even a stir plate, I all do it manually).

That's cool, I'm not a T-58 proponent, just think it fits more into the Belgian scheme than any other.

Lalbrew Abbaye has been my favourite Belgian dry yeast so far, but M20, M31, M41 both good. And Belle Saison and M29 both pretty good. I need to try M21.

 

[Sadfield]

@chthon @clib surely an issue of what your frame of reference is, isn't it?

The point about fermentation temperature is interesting, I often think homebrewers put to much weight on what temperature commercial Belgian beers are fermented at, and end up trying to force small volumes of wort to ferment too warm. Ending up with more bananary, phenolic beers.

 

[clib]

@chthon @clib surely an issue of what your frame of reference is, isn't it?

Yes, I think so.