License for tasting beer

[nige]

As long as it isn't involved as part of any of the financial costings or profits of a business it would be a gift, I doubt the police would come bursting the door in here, we all give beer on here and would be only be a free sample of what was made during the course not a crate each. I would do it anyway and not include this in anyway as a financial part of the business and clearly state this as it is meant to be a non profit making free gift that course attendees are free to take home a free sample of course matter obviously made as a bye product. They pay only for the knowledge.

 

[PhilBrew]

I think Richard is right in that homebrew is intended for "domestic" consumption". Either that or it's for "household consumption".

I thought it was for personal consumption.

... well, the applicable section of the legislation (link) says ...

Exemption from duty of beer brewed for private consumption.
The duty on beer produced in the United Kingdom shall not be chargeable on beer produced by a person who produces beer only for his own domestic use.

... at least that is how it's worded for Beer, but there are similar sections relating to Wine and Cider ... as you can see it refers to "private consumption", not personal, in the section title ... and then the text goes on to define the exemption applying to "domestic use", and as I explained over there (link) in the eyes of the law that gets interpreted as "for the use of the household", which would include giving it away at your daughter's wedding, or whatever.

But anyway, the question at the top of this thread is around licencing ... and we need to recognise that the legislation around Duty on alcoholic beverages is all about taxing it ... whereas the legislation around licencing the sale of alcoholic beverages is about controlling the impact of people consuming it ... those are two COMPLETELY different bits of legislation, they are unrelated (other than both being about alcohol).

Cheers, PhilB

 

[nige]

So basically as long as its given and no profit has been made, your fine. I have provided art classes in the past and attended students usually take home something created during the course, I don't get taxed on sale of artwork but on earned profit of the course only. 20%.

 

[terrym]

Why not say the course specifically excludes the supply of any form of alcohol?
If any is then provided gratis it is outside the scope of any paid service provision.

 

[PhilBrew]

So basically as long as its given and no profit has been made, your fine.

... NO!!! ... the UK supermarkets regularly run promotions where they sell alcohol below cost price (loss leaders), they still need a licence to sell it.

But more importantly, licencing is NOT about duty/profit/loss ... the licensing laws are all about controlling who can and can't sell and serve alcohol ... licensees take responsibilities in return for the right to sell and serve alcohol e.g. they promise not to sell it to under age people, or people who are already intoxicated ... they're not about collecting taxes.

Cheers, PhilB​

 

[Oneflewover]

I went to a brewing course at a well known homebrew shop a few years ago. We were invited to bring our own beers to sample during the course (and share with others) and there was a keg of beer made by the proprietor that just happened to be left out on the side......

 

[nige]

... NO!!! ... the UK supermarkets regularly run promotions where they sell alcohol below cost price (loss leaders), they still need a licence to sell it.
But more importantly, licencing is NOT about duty/profit/loss ... the licensing laws are all about controlling who can and can't sell and serve alcohol ... licensees take responsibilities in return for the right to sell and serve alcohol e.g. they promise not to sell it to under age people, or people who are already intoxicated ... they're not about collecting taxes.

Cheers, PhilB​

Nobody is selling beer!!!, its a gift, just like you give beer!, why do you need a license to give beer? As fairwell too the course? This is what you can achieve! This is what we made but they only paid for knowledge, not beer. That's a gift or are we all guilty? Oh and don't think it's about responsibilities, anyone can sell beer to obviously within the law but only on one condition, they pay taxes. We aren't talking about selling beer.

 

[nige]

Why not say the course specifically excludes the supply of any form of alcohol?
If any is then provided gratis it is outside the scope of any paid service provision.

That's pretty much my point. Obviously in writing and no financial connection too (gratis)!!! .

 

[brewgoat]

We are no longer talking home brew but about a business so the definitive answer is that supplied by Spinningwoman. However whether the local authority will require both personal and premises licences is very much dependent on them. If less than 15 classes per year then a personal licence with TENs being issued would be lawful.
Tread carefully as you are also likely to require planning permission for change of use and to register for business waste management and water treatment. No point in falling on the wrong side of the authorities. Speak to them and find out what they require.

 

[nige]

Any outline planning covers this so don't worry just give them your plans with outlined map and ambitions, change of use, well that won't be a problem as so many are now derelict. All the best!!. I for one am sure you will be fine.

 

[Spinningwoman]

Nobody is selling beer!!!, its a gift, just like you give beer!, why do you need a license to give beer? As fairwell too the course? This is what you can achieve! This is what we made but they only paid for knowledge, not beer. That's a gift or are we all guilty? Oh and don't think it's about responsibilities, anyone can sell beer to obviously within the law but only on one condition, they pay taxes. We aren't talking about selling beer.

It’s not a gift if it is part of a paid for event. Sorry, but that’s just how it works - otherwise every village hall would be going down the route of ‘giving away’ glasses of wine at social events and claiming that the ticket price was only the food and they didn’t need a licence. It’s such a basic thing, everyone would do it if it was a loophole.

 

[nige]

Every village hall? Listen nobody is selling or making any financial gain from beer however premises and conditions always must be met as with all businesses, outline planning is exactly what this is for. We need any diversification for all the derelict buildings available these days, sadly online and technology has not been kind for the G. P.. I very much doubt things getting much better.

 

[PhilBrew]

Oh and don't think it's about responsibilities, anyone can sell beer to obviously within the law but only on one condition, they pay taxes.

... Jeez Louise!!! How wrong do people need to be!

Try having a look there (link), pages and pages and pages of legislation and, apart from there being fees for applying for licences, not a word about paying tax

Ultimately, I'd guess that whether it would be worth carrying out any of these "schemes" being dreamed up to try to avoid being seen as "selling beer", may depend on whether by taking payment for attending the course and only serving beer to those attending the course @Rafaj Ondrej (the OP) was forming a "club" ... because the legislation requires a licence be held for "the supply of alcohol by or on behalf of a club to, or to the order of, a member of the club" ... that's "supply", whether sold or not
Anyways, it looks like he is planning on taking this up with his local licensing committee and has alternatives should they ***** he would need to be licenced (see posts #7 and #8 in this thread) ... so maybe he'll come back and tell us what they said.

Cheers, PhilB​

 

[nige]

Phil your going far too deep, There is no sale of beer!!! What bit of this can you understand!!! , ha I give up. I'm afraid in some peoples worlds nothing is possible. Outline planning is free.only about £150 after that, been through it a few times. Too anyone, never let anything stop your progression. Ps you can't be accused of sales or avoidance if you don't not sell.

 

[Clint]

It's whether planning,licensing or who ever will agree that the beer "given away" is exactly that...or,is being charged for as part of the fee for the course.
Have to wait and see...

 

[MickDundee]

Even the Mrs doesn't get any.

What about your beer though?

 

[Clint]

That's definitely on rations!

 

[PhilBrew]

Phil your going far too deep

... no, you're not going deep enough to understand, assuming you just know, somehow

Ps you can't be accused of sales or avoidance if you don't not sell.

... I suggested you read the legislation, but you couldn't even be bothered to read the bit I copied and pasted for you to read, so let me say it again, so you have a chance ... you need a licence to "supply" alcohol to a member of a club, you don't have to sell it to them, you just have to "supply" it to them ... as it happens, I haven't gone deep enough into the legislation to find out when a "club" is formed, but I've also heard the advice and guidance given to church wardens and the like that @Spinningwoman is referring to (about selling tickets for events/raffles but giving alcohol for free falling foul of licensing legislation) and I'm guessing that that's because by selling tickets (or places on a training course) you're inadvertently forming a "club", and by proceeding to "supply" alcohol to club members you would then be engaging in "licensable activities" ... do you see? It's not just pubs and not only places that sell beer that need to be licenced

Meanwhile, talk of outline planning permission and paying duty/taxes on homebrew has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question

Cheers, PhilB

 

[brewgoat]

Outline planning is free.only about £150 after that, been through it a few times. Too anyone, never let anything stop your progression.

Nothing in this world is ever free, particularly when dealing with local authorities.

Cost of planning applications

so possibly £206 for work within boundary? Even the planning portal charges a fee on top for every application over £60

However I very much support the sentiment of the advice given and would rephrase it as never let the bas***d's grind you down.
Unfortunately there would appear to be a whole lot more of them these days eager to do the grinding.

 

[nige]

... no, you're not going deep enough to understand, assuming you just know, somehow

... I suggested you read the legislation, but you couldn't even be bothered to read the bit I copied and pasted for you to read, so let me say it again, so you have a chance ... you need a licence to "supply" alcohol to a member of a club, you don't have to sell it to them, you just have to "supply" it to them ... as it happens, I haven't gone deep enough into the legislation to find out when a "club" is formed, but I've also heard the advice and guidance given to church wardens and the like that @Spinningwoman is referring to (about selling tickets for events/raffles but giving alcohol for free falling foul of licensing legislation) and I'm guessing that that's because by selling tickets (or places on a training course) you're inadvertently forming a "club", and by proceeding to "supply" alcohol to club members you would then be engaging in "licensable activities" ... do you see? It's not just pubs and not only places that sell beer that need to be licenced

Meanwhile, talk of outline planning permission and paying duty/taxes on homebrew has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question

Cheers, PhilB

Nothing in this world is ever free, particularly when dealing with local authorities.

Cost of planning applications

so possibly £206 for work within boundary? Even the planning portal charges a fee on top for every application over £60

However I very much support the sentiment of the advice given and would rephrase it as never let the bas***d's grind you down.
Unfortunately there would appear to be a whole lot more of them these days eager to do the grinding.

6th
Yeah , let's just see, been through planning a few times, only down to negotiation. :hat:
I must apologise if I'm wrong but I thought I read beer was given not sold. These are totally different subjects.
Ps. ( outline planning is free). For anyone who doesn't understand, outline planning applications are for fee's abilities, ie. Before planning applications start and so often saves money on initial detailed applications that would, may or may not be rejected.