License for tasting beer

[Pavros]

Mick, I think you're right but the situation may be more complicated if he gave out his own homebrew as examples of styles rather than buying in commercial examples. Duty may apply in this case.

The grey area would be whether a licence is needed if those attending the class brought in the beer for distribution to everyone rather than OP supplying it. The question here being whether the premises requires a licence for the supply and consumption of alcohol

 

[MickDundee]

The grey area would be whether a licence is needed if those attending the class brought in the beer for distribution to everyone rather than OP supplying it. The question here being whether the premises requires a licence for the supply and consumption of alcohol

I would assume if he stated that they could bring bottles of the following styles (and recommended the beers) and consume them with free corkage then he’d be ok, just like restaurants that offer BYOB with free corkage. If he was providing the beer (including finished product home brew) then he would need further advice (probably from both the council and HMRC if it was finished Homebrew).

 

[The Baron]

I thought even as home brewers we are not allowed to give beer away as it's for" personal consumption only."

He's not giving homebrew away though Clint it is the commercial brewed bottles he is giving for style appraisal I would do what Ankou said and give them a list of beers that are to styles for them to purchase themselves which should solve any legal issues

 

[Leon103]

If you don't earn yo can't pay tax on earnings, it was just a for instance, weather the person has a licence to sell alcohol or not doesn't prevent him giving me a bottle of his own personal wine to take home. Licences are irrelevant. The bloke from the chippy can give me a bottle of wine.

It's relevant to the bloody OP though. The question all along was can he give some bought beer to paid customers or does he need a licence. Tax, profit etc didn't come into it.

 

[Leon103]

This has got to be the best thing on the internet at the moment. More **** posted on here than the daily mail.

As a commercial barrister for over 15 years and represented a number of hmrc and big hospitality companies in that time I believe I answered the OP with my first post. I believe it was the first reply. It was that simple "do I need a licence" - Yes. Does he need a licence for the unfermented homebrew, no.

If I was the OP I would contact his local licencing department and seek advice rather than here. They are there to give people licences, not look at ways to stop licences.

 

[Pavros]

Leon - stop bringing knowledge and experience into the discussion!!

 

[strange-steve]

About 100 posts and 6 pages ago the OP said that he had

just got a meeting with the local licensing authority next week, will post an update after

and still this thread goes on. Why don't we wait to see the outcome rather than arguing over it for another week

 

[Leon103]

About 100 posts and 6 pages ago the OP said that he had and still this thread goes on. Why don't we wait to see the outcome rather than arguing over it for another week

Because I want to gift you a beer. You just need to buy a ticket. Licencing dept's can pull a mental when people buy a load of beer for a party and then charge their friends money to reclaim the costs. So no profit is made but some areas require a licence

 

[The Baron]

HMRC are not involved at all as the duty on the beer has been already paid it is about licensing the sale/gift of beer. As I have said earlier I would just give the attendees a list of suitable beers to bring along if they so wish for style appraisal at their cost. The beers are not provided by the person running the course or included in the price of the course either so if somebody wants to give a taste of a beer to another attendee no law is broken apart from the person running the course should notify the landlord that alcohol may be consumed on their premises and as long as they are ok with that, thats that. Do not open a can of worms by including it in the course or the sale of whether it be included in the course it could be construed that it is technically paid for in the course fee and thus a sale could have been made.

 

[strange-steve]

Here's one, what if a friend asks me to brew a keg of beer for them, is that allowed? What if they pay for the raw ingredients, does that make a difference?

 

[Binkei Huckaback]

I think Philbrew is correct. And I think those who disagree are getting confused. Yes, you can give away alcohol, but you still pay tax and duty. For example, gifts to clients at Christmas. You can give it away by the lorry load if you wish. As long as taxes and duties have been paid (though I'm not sure if you can claim back the VAT as entertainment etc). You can even do this with homebrew. As long as you have all the paperwork and have paid taxes and duty.

But if you're giving it away as a gift at Christmas, or as a supermarket selling Carling at a loss to drive up sales elsewhere, the people you're giving it to are unlikely to be drinking it on your premises (and in the case of shops not allowed to as they only have a off sales licence). If you take your clients or staff out at Chrismas and put your company credit card behind the bar, tax and dufy have been paid and the premises you are on and/or the person selling are licensed.

If you're supplying alcohol on the premises as part of your business, someone or a building will have to be licenced for the 'consumption' of alcohol which has nothing to do with tax or duty and only has do with being fit and able to conduct the business of supplying alcohol.

Ultimately, it's in the interest of anyone never to take for granted anything they read on a forum unless the advice is given in a professional capacity. Always seek the advice of a professional or the relevant authority and always get your answer in writing. If there's anything you don't understand or are unsure of, contact a solicitor with specialist knowledge.

I got the impression some people have the opinion that planning deparments and other licencing authorities only exist to extract money from people. This isn't the case as the work they do has to be done and people don't work for free.

Finally, since the Exisemen were had over by the Moonrakers a few hundred years ago, they've seen every trick and dodge you could ever dream of, so don't bother trying (to be clear, I know the original poster had a genuine question and is trying to do things by the book).

 

[RichardM]

About 100 posts and 6 pages ago the OP said that he had and still this thread goes on. Why don't we wait to see the outcome rather than arguing over it for another week

Because it's the full half hour argument, not the short five minute one.

 

[RichardM]

Leon - stop bringing knowledge and experience into the discussion!!

That's what Nige claimed to be doing

 

[Cwrw666]

Unfortunately, he was correct, the law is the law. There is no such thing as an "overly harsh interpretation of the law".

So I take it if I called round your house and you were enjoying a homebrew you'd sadly inform me that you were unable to offer me one as it was against the law.
Fair enough. End of conversation.

 

[PhilBrew]

Here's one, what if a friend asks me to brew a keg of beer for them, is that allowed? What if they pay for the raw ingredients, does that make a difference?

... well, there's an interesting situation ... because, as far as the Revenue is concerned "wort" becomes "beer", and the liability for Duty on that "beer" comes into existence, at the point of pitching yeast ... so if you were to brew that batch, and hand over the wort to your "friend" and let them pitch the yeast and ferment it out, then they would be eligible to the (100%) relief on the Beer Duty so long as they used it "only for his own domestic use" (commercial breweries have also used this "loophole", when preparing wort to sell as "real wort kits" to be sold and fermented by homebrewers) ... BUT, if by "brew a keg" you didn't mean just to brew up the wort but also intended to ferment it out for your "friend", then it would probably come down to just how close you were with this "friend" and whether their plans for that beer could be justified as falling under your "own domestic use" ...

... but hold on ... ​

About 100 posts and 6 pages ago the OP said ... and still this thread goes on. Why don't we wait to see the outcome rather than arguing over it for another week

... aaarrrrrgggghhhh, sarcasm

Cheers, PhilB

 

[strange-steve]

well, there's an interesting situation

Interesting indeed... It was mostly hypothetical however to muddy the waters further, what if said friend and I split the cost of the ingredients and took half a keg each? I have done this several times with a mate who loves beer but can't be arsed brewing. If we held hands while pitching the yeast could we be considered co-brewers?

 

[PhilBrew]

If we held hands while pitching the yeast could we be considered co-brewers?

... I reckon if you were willing to do that ... and perhaps dance around the FV, chanting "Fly, Fly my pretties!!", as you pitched the yeast ... of course, in practice you wouldn't need to actually do this, you'd just need to (both, independently) be willing to tell the representative from the Revenue that this was what you did, should they ever ask ... then as far as the HMRC are concerned you'd probably be considered as co-habiting, let alone co-brewers, and any purpose that would fall under your friend's "own domestic use" would also come under your "own domestic use"

Cheers, PhilB

 

[terrym]

About 100 posts and 6 pages ago the OP said that he had and still this thread goes on. Why don't we wait to see the outcome rather than arguing over it for another week

If the OP reads through the many conflicting pieces of advice he has received he might conclude that he wished he had not asked the question in the first place, especially since he needs to get it right.
As @Bigcol49 used to say on here, 10 homebrewers, 11 opinions.

 

[strange-steve]

dance around the FV, chanting "Fly, Fly my pretties!!", as you pitched the yeast ..

Damn I forgot to do that on my last brew day, you reckon that's why fermentation has stalled at 1.020?

 

[strange-steve]

PS apologies to the OP for making this thread even longer after me moaning about it dragging on, the irony isn't lost