Is there any interest in a possible group purchase of glucanase (aka beta glucanase)?

[Hop_it]

There are a number of Brewzilla, and possibly other all-in-one system owners who are experiencing problems with poor wort circulation during the mash, and slow sparging. A suggestion has been put forward by RoomWithABrew to use glucanase in the mash. Based on his reported experience, and having now read up on what this stuff does, it appears to be a helpful suggestion. So, I set about trying to buy some, but there is a problem. I could not find any homebrew supplier selling it, and the smallest quantity available from commercial sources in the UK (e.g. Murphy and Son) is packaged in 5kg plastic bottles, which I estimate is probably ~5l of liquid enzyme. According to
RoomWithABrew you only need ~10ml for a typical 20l brew. Also, it has a limited shelf life.
So, first of all is there any interest in buying 5kg, and splitting it up (i.e. ~50 x 100ml lots)?

The next issue is how to repackage it. It is a liquid food grade product, so would have to be put into suitable new/unused bottles with screw caps. This carries a cost, which would have to be recovered, and will be a lot of work for whoever might take it on. So, would this then be classed as a commercial transaction, and therefore be outside the scope of the "Group Buying" scheme?

I realise that this idea is most likely already dead in the water, but perhaps somebody out there has a solution worth exploring?????

 

[KegThat]

I can sell this and do everyone a boss deal! How much would everyone want? If there is a bit of interest I will order some in for the end of the week? Cheers

 

[KegThat]

Would anyone be interested in £2.50 for 100ml bottle?

 

[Hop_it]

Would anyone be interested in £2.50 for 100ml bottle?

As you might expect, I'm certainly interested, but I would not want to buy for 2 or 3 weeks yet because I'm going on holiday for a fortnight at the weekend

I hope really hope that there is enough interest to make it worthwhile for you

 

[KegThat]

As you might expect, I'm certainly interested, but I would not want to buy for 2 or 3 weeks yet because I'm going on holiday for a fortnight at the weekend

I hope really hope that there is enough interest to make it worthwhile for you

I would love to get it on our site but I don't know much about it!!! If you wrote me a decent product description for the stuff I would give you a bottle for free I am thinking I could just split up and put in screw cap pet bottles?

 

[KegThat]

Its only £30 investment for me so worth a try...

 

[An Ankoù]

There are a number of Brewzilla, and possibly other all-in-one system owners who are experiencing problems with poor wort circulation during the mash, and slow sparging. A suggestion has been put forward by RoomWithABrew to use glucanase in the mash. Based on his reported experience, and having now read up on what this stuff does, it appears to be a helpful suggestion. So, I set about trying to buy some, but there is a problem. I could not find any homebrew supplier selling it, and the smallest quantity available from commercial sources in the UK (e.g. Murphy and Son) is packaged in 5kg plastic bottles, which I estimate is probably ~5l of liquid enzyme. According to
RoomWithABrew you only need ~10ml for a typical 20l brew. Also, it has a limited shelf life.
So, first of all is there any interest in buying 5kg, and splitting it up (i.e. ~50 x 100ml lots)?

The next issue is how to repackage it. It is a liquid food grade product, so would have to be put into suitable new/unused bottles with screw caps. This carries a cost, which would have to be recovered, and will be a lot of work for whoever might take it on. So, would this then be classed as a commercial transaction, and therefore be outside the scope of the "Group Buying" scheme?

I realise that this idea is most likely already dead in the water, but perhaps somebody out there has a solution worth exploring?????

Are you sure you want to alter the chemistry of the mash and the resulting beer in this way? If you're having run off problems, why not just use some rice hulls in the mash?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Another possible option is to hold your mash at 45°c for 10min before raising to your first mash rest - this should utilise the natural glutanase in the grain (it works for me)

 

[Hop_it]

Are you sure you want to alter the chemistry of the mash and the resulting beer in this way? If you're having run off problems, why not just use some rice hulls in the mash?

Yes, I understand what you say, and I am mindful of the possible consequences of altering the mash chemistry, and subsequently the beer in an undesirable way. But it is a product already being used by the brewing industry, although I don't know to what extent . . . . . so I would still like to give it a try.
I have used rice hulls in quite a few brews, but with mixed results.

Another possible option is to hold your mash at 45°c for 10min before raising to your first mash rest - this should utilise the natural glucanase in the grain (it works for me)

I tried the glucan rest procedure on my last brew. This was mainly because I had almost 20% of malted rye in the recipe. I also incorporated a hefty addition of rice hulls. But despite these measures I had one of my worst ever brew days with the Brewzilla. I really struggled to get the temperature up from 45°C to 66°C because the wort flow through the grain bed was so poor. I had to do a lot of stirring, and add a couple of kettles full of boiling water to get the temperature up. I wasn't timing it, but it took a very l-o-n-g time. . . . . . Not something I wish to repeat

But if it proves to be a waste of time, then I will have learnt something, and I'll sit and sulk in a dark corner for a few hours until I get over it

 

[An Ankoù]

Yes, I understand what you say, and I am mindful of the possible consequences of altering the mash chemistry, and subsequently the beer in an undesirable way. But it is a product already being used by the brewing industry, although I don't know to what extent . . . . . so I would still like to give it a try.
I have used rice hulls in quite a few brews, but with mixed results.



I tried the glucan rest procedure on my last brew. This was mainly because I had almost 20% of malted rye in the recipe. I also incorporated a hefty addition of rice hulls. But despite these measures I had one of my worst ever brew days with the Brewzilla. I really struggled to get the temperature up from 45°C to 66°C because the wort flow through the grain bed was so poor. I had to do a lot of stirring, and add a couple of kettles full of boiling water to get the temperature up. I wasn't timing it, but it took a very l-o-n-g time. . . . . . Not something I wish to repeat

But if it proves to be a waste of time, then I will have learnt something, and I'll sit and sulk in a dark corner for a few hours until I get over it

I, for one, would give you every encouragement to experiment and let us know how it goes. I've never had an issue with glucans even though I regularly make beers with up to 50% wheat or spelt or sometimes more, but then I use an oversize mash tun where I can give the mix a good paddling. I've got rice hulls, but haven't used them yet. I've used other enzymes like amyloglucosidase and protease- the latter to promote clarity, but having tried them, I've learnt to use other methods. Go for it. Keep us informed.

 

[Hop_it]

I, for one, would give you every encouragement to experiment and let us know how it goes. I've never had an issue with glucans even though I regularly make beers with up to 50% wheat or spelt or sometimes more, but then I use an oversize mash tun where I can give the mix a good paddling. I've got rice hulls, but haven't used them yet. I've used other enzymes like amyloglucosidase and protease- the latter to promote clarity, but having tried them, I've learnt to use other methods. Go for it. Keep us informed.

Thanks - I like a bit of encouragement from time to time
I also had never had any issues in the past with my old brewing kit using quite high percentages of wheat. My old mash tun is short and fat rather than tall and thin like the 'grain pipe' on the Brewzilla. I'm pretty sure that the proportions do make a difference to the way the mash behaves.
Anyway, if the beta-glucanase becomes available to me, then I will certainly report back on how it goes. It probably won't be for a few weeks because I have plenty of beer waiting to be drunk before I brew again - 20l of which is the Rye Pale Ale that I had the problems with. Hopefully it will have been worth the blood sweat and tears

 

[Hop_it]

I would love to get it on our site but I don't know much about it!!! If you wrote me a decent product description for the stuff I would give you a bottle for free I am thinking I could just split up and put in screw cap pet bottles?

First of all thanks for your support so far.

I will try to write a product description before I go on holiday this weekend, and will e-mail it to you. However, please be aware that it will be based on proprietary information available on the internet, not on personal experience (because I haven't had any yet).

Your suggestion to repackage in small screw top PET bottles appears fine to me. Small PE bottles would be just as good. The only thing to be mindful of is that they are suitable for food contact applications . . . . . I mention this because I worked for most of my life in the chemical industry for two large polymer suppliers - and it does matter

 

[KegThat]

First of all thanks for your support so far.

I will try to write a product description before I go on holiday this weekend, and will e-mail it to you. However, please be aware that it will be based on proprietary information available on the internet, not on personal experience (because I haven't had any yet).

Your suggestion to repackage in small screw top PET bottles appears fine to me. Small PE bottles would be just as good. The only thing to be mindful of is that they are suitable for food contact applications . . . . . I mention this because I worked for most of my life in the chemical industry for two large polymer suppliers - and it does matter

Yeah of course I will sue the amber pet bottles I do 500ml but only fill them up a little bit!!

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274758627252?hash=item3ff8e3efb4:g:c-EAAOSw7KdgdsdJ

 

[Hop_it]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274758627252?hash=item3ff8e3efb4:g:c-EAAOSw7KdgdsdJ

Thanks for the link, and sorry for not acknowledging your post sooner, but I've been away on holiday for a fortnight with almost no access to internet.
Unfortunately this is not what I've been looking for. The problems I've had are almost certainly due to the stickiness of grains like malted rye and malted wheat in the mash, and this is mainly because of glucan. The beta-glucanase breaks down the glucan. In theory this should be achievable by using a glucan rest in the mash cycle, but I tried this, and it didn't help

 

[Hop_it]

Update
Unfortunately the offer by BenParr (above) to repackage beta-glucanase into smaller bottles for resale to homebrewers is not going to fly. Further research into the storage and handling of this product has revealed that in order to preserve the already time limited shelf life, it must be stored at a temperature between 5°C and 12°C. In addition to this the available H&S data on the product advises that there may also be some possible health and safety issues to asthma sufferers. Understandably Ben feels that this is not something that his organisation can manage - and I agree with him. . . . . . . So, it's back to the drawing board

PS - Incidentally, the Rye Pale Ale I mentioned above (post #11), which started me off on this quest, has turned out well. I enjoyed my first glass of it last night, and will be having more this evening

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Thanks for the link, and sorry for not acknowledging your post sooner, but I've been away on holiday for a fortnight with almost no access to internet.
Unfortunately this is not what I've been looking for. The problems I've had are almost certainly due to the stickiness of grains like malted rye and malted wheat in the mash, and this is mainly because of glucan. The beta-glucanase breaks down the glucan. In theory this should be achievable by using a glucan rest in the mash cycle, but I tried this, and it didn't help

We use this when mashing with rye wheat and oats, no stuck mashes.
Try calling Niche solutions
https://www.nichesolutionsgb.co.uk/food-beverage/#enzymes

 

[Hop_it]

We use this when mashing with rye wheat and oats, no stuck mashes.
Try calling Niche solutions
https://www.nichesolutionsgb.co.uk/food-beverage/#enzymes

Thanks, I've just had a look at their products, and I assume that the one you are referring to is the "CraftZYM Ruby". Unfortunately the picture is not big enough to read the label with the storage and handling advice, and unlike Murphy & Sons they don't appear to publish H&S data on their website. However, it looks worth following up. I will try to contact them for some more information

PS - By the way, are you a professional brewer?

 

[UKSkydiver]

You might find the info you need on the manufacturer's site somewhere:

Beer - Erbslöh Geisenheim Getränketechnologie (erbsloeh.com)

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Thanks, I've just had a look at their products, and I assume that the one you are referring to is the "CraftZYM Ruby". Unfortunately the picture is not big enough to read the label with the storage and handling advice, and unlike Murphy & Sons they don't appear to publish H&S data on their website. However, it looks worth following up. I will try to contact them for some more information

PS - By the way, are you a professional brewer?

If you need any info email Volker at Erbsloh and they will give you the data sheets for every prjoduct they pproduce, or any concerns you may have. And yes i run a 2.5bbl brewery.
[email protected]