Inverting sugar

[orange]

Does anyone do this? I've just seen a how to invert sugar. :geek:

 

[Sean_Mc]

Hold the bag upside down :whistle:


I'll get me coat

 

[pjbiker]

Does anyone do this? I've just seen a how to invert sugar. :geek:

First get yourself a pint of copius water and a set of atomic weights.... :lol:

Seriously, I've heard of golden syrup being referred to as 'invert sugar' but have never bothered to look it up.

 

[Moley]

Does anyone do this? I've just seen a how to invert sugar. :geek:

If you mean by boiling it to a syrup with a bit of citric acid, that's a fallacy.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that by that method you might manage to invert around 4%

Tony .... help!

Golden syrup does contain quite a high percentage of invert sugar.

 

[orange]

I'll take that as a big fat NO then.

 

[richc]

I don't think actually inverting the sugar would make much difference in most brewing situations but both wiki and the Encyclopaedia Britannica go with the citric acid method of producing it.
Personally, when I've made fake 'candy sugar' for Belgian style brews I've usually stuck some acid in if I had some lying around. I'm pretty certain it made no difference to the fermentability of the sugar but it seemed a good idea at the time.

 

[jamesb]

I'll let the yeast do it for me automagically thank you.

Actually, I would be interested in knowing whether using invert sugar over normal sugar decreases fermmentation time.

 

[Good Ed]

If you mean by boiling it to a syrup with a bit of citric acid, that's a fallacy.

I've been under this fallacy for years

 

[luckyeddie]

Does anyone do this? I've just seen a how to invert sugar. :geek:

I do for all my strong Belgian-style ales.

 

[luckyeddie]

Does anyone do this? I've just seen a how to invert sugar. :geek:

If you mean by boiling it to a syrup with a bit of citric acid, that's a fallacy.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that by that method you might manage to invert around 4%

Tony .... help!

Golden syrup does contain quite a high percentage of invert sugar.

No, it's not a fallacy - it's a hydrolysis reaction which is greatly catalysed in an acid environment. You can invert 4 or 5% without using acid, just by boiling sugar solution for 5 minutes. Add 1g of citric acid or cream of tartar to catalyse the reaction and you will convert pretty well all of the sucrose to the fructuse/glucose mix in an hour. The longer you keep it at 260-275F (by adding tablespoons of water in a controlled manner) the darker your resultant invert sugar.

What MAY be a fallacy is whether or not what the Belgians call 'candi sugar' is what we call 'candi sugar' (invert sugar) - also, whether giving the yeasties a head start by using invert sugar instead of sucrose really makes a massive difference is debatable.

All I know is, the Belgian-style beers I have made in the last 3 months (all using 'candi sugar' - some light, some dark dependent upon the style of beer) are without doubt the best brews I have ever made. The one I made with Duvel yeast is the best beer I have ever tasted - although I might be just a little biased.

 

[richc]

What MAY be a fallacy is whether or not what the Belgians call 'candi sugar' is what we call 'candi sugar' (invert sugar) - also, whether giving the yeasties a head start by using invert sugar instead of sucrose really makes a massive difference is debatable.

This all comes with a big 'I may well be completely wrong' warning....

The stuff sold in brew shops isn't, AFAIK, either invert sugar or the stuff used by Belgian brewers. From my information,inverting sugar stops it from forming crystals and the stuff used by Belgian brewers is a syrup, neither description matches the crystals sold as candi sugar in brew shops.

 

[luckyeddie]

What MAY be a fallacy is whether or not what the Belgians call 'candi sugar' is what we call 'candi sugar' (invert sugar) - also, whether giving the yeasties a head start by using invert sugar instead of sucrose really makes a massive difference is debatable.

This all comes with a big 'I may well be completely wrong' warning....

The stuff sold in brew shops isn't, AFAIK, either invert sugar or the stuff used by Belgian brewers. From my information,inverting sugar stops it from forming crystals and the stuff used by Belgian brewers is a syrup, neither description matches the crystals sold as candi sugar in brew shops.

I make my own, and have never bought any from a brewshop. The difference between producing rocks and syrup is simple, but very tricky. Once you have caramelised your sugar to the required colour and flavour by maintaining a temperature of around 135C (275F) for the desired time, then if you want to produce rocks, just allow the temperature to rise to 145C (300F), then immediately pour out onto your cooling tray. If you want syrup, CAREFULLY add more water (1/3 by weight), mixing all the time and remove from the heat. Be VERY careful because it spits like fury.

Rocks and syrup are (I believe) exactly the same, apart from the amount of sugar being less concentrated in the syrup. I now just make rocks. When it comes to getting ready to add it to the brew, it needs to be dissolved in hot water or wort before adding to the boiler.

The missus now wants me to spend some time making boiled sweets, so it looks as though I have shot myself in the foot good and proper.

Next week, I'll make some more of each, also highlighting the difference between light and dark candi, take some piccies and write up a 'how to' guide.

 

[Aleman]

No, it's not a fallacy - it's a hydrolysis reaction which is greatly catalysed in an acid environment. You can invert 4 or 5% without using acid, just by boiling sugar solution for 5 minutes. Add 1g of citric acid or cream of tartar to catalyse the reaction and you will convert pretty well all of the sucrose to the fructose/glucose mix in an hour.

The fallacy is that invert sugar starts fermentations faster than glucose. . . . The other issue with Inverting at home, is that a lot of the product Glucose and fructose is also bonded to the acid salt, in this case citrate, so in addition to glucose / fructose you also have glucose or fructose citrate . . .which needs further work to pass across the cell wall.

Inverting sugar does not stop it forming crystals . . .both glucose and fructose have crystalline structures . . . however it does take a lot of energy to produce a dry sample . . .so most manufacturers usually stop when it hits about 80% solid (i.e Golden Syrup). . . . Sometimes it does go further and you do end up with sticky syrupy blocks of invert sugar. . . .due to the time and difficulty in dissolving it before use most breweries will use a syrup rather than the crystalline structure.

Darker grades of 'invert' sugar add different flavours as Eddie has pointed out . . .but do you need to invert the sucrose before you make the Candi sugar :hmm: :hmm: Personally I don't think so . . . but then Belgians and beers with Invert Sugar are not my thing anyway

 

[luckyeddie]

No, it's not a fallacy - it's a hydrolysis reaction which is greatly catalysed in an acid environment. You can invert 4 or 5% without using acid, just by boiling sugar solution for 5 minutes. Add 1g of citric acid or cream of tartar to catalyse the reaction and you will convert pretty well all of the sucrose to the fructose/glucose mix in an hour.

The fallacy is that invert sugar starts fermentations faster than glucose. . . . The other issue with Inverting at home, is that a lot of the product Glucose and fructose is also bonded to the acid salt, in this case citrate, so in addition to glucose / fructose you also have glucose or fructose citrate . . .which needs further work to pass across the cell wall.

Inverting sugar does not stop it forming crystals . . .both glucose and fructose have crystalline structures . . . however it does take a lot of energy to produce a dry sample . . .so most manufacturers usually stop when it hits about 80% solid (i.e Golden Syrup). . . . Sometimes it does go further and you do end up with sticky syrupy blocks of invert sugar. . . .due to the time and difficulty in dissolving it before use most breweries will use a syrup rather than the crystalline structure.

Darker grades of 'invert' sugar add different flavours as Eddie has pointed out . . .but do you need to invert the sucrose before you make the Candi sugar :hmm: :hmm: Personally I don't think so . . . but then Belgians and beers with Invert Sugar are not my thing anyway

I can feel an experiment coming on - two batches of caramelised candi (probably syrup as opposed to rocks) manufactured under the same conditions, one inverted and the other not, both added to a split batch, fermented and then subject to the discerning Luckyeddie Belgian Beer taste test. Actually, on reflection it would be so difficult to set up a parallel test and almost impossible to manufacture the candi under identical conditions as to be meaningless. Even the kitchen door being open during the caramelisation would (potentially) alter the temperature, boil rate and perhaps the taste. Also, my jam thermometer is only graduated in 5 degree steps.

The only way of being sure would be to measure the colour and the chemical composition. Has anyone got a spectrophotometer and a Lovibond tintometer I can borrow?

 

[Moley]

Has anyone got a spectrophotometer and a Lovibond tintometer I can borrow?

Sorry, I think I must have lent them to the same neighbour who never returned my socket set or lawnmower

 

[luckyeddie]

Has anyone got a spectrophotometer and a Lovibond tintometer I can borrow?

Sorry, I think I must have lent them to the same neighbour who never returned my socket set or lawnmower

I reckon Aleman will have a couple of each in his loft - just behind the gas chromatograph and next to the scanning electron microscope.

:party: