Increasing grain for BIAB efficiency

[davidgrace]

I want to make a Timothy Taylor's Landlord all grain. The Malt for 23L is Pale Malt 4250grams and Black Malt 30grams. I want to make an 11.5L using the Brew in a Bag method so that I simply half the above measure. I understand that adding a little more grain than the recipe requires will make up for loss of efficiency using BIAB. Can anyone suggest by how much I should increase the grains without going too far.

Thanks

David Cartledge

 

[Ghillie]

I want to make a Timothy Taylor's Landlord all grain. The Malt for 23L is Pale Malt 4250grams and Black Malt 30grams. I want to make an 11.5L using the Brew in a Bag method so that I simply half the above measure. I understand that adding a little more grain than the recipe requires will make up for loss of efficiency using BIAB. Can anyone suggest by how much I should increase the grains without going too far.

Thanks

David Cartledge

What was the BH efficiency used in the recipe? You'd have to know that first. It's usually somewhere around 70-76%

You could make a crude guess at your BIAB BH efficiency if you don't know it, but that's all it would be. A crude guess... It could be anywhere between 45% and 80%. I would reckon about 60% personally. Unless you've calculated it before on previous brews and know otherwise?

Unless ABV % is absolutely critical to you, I personally wouldn't bother with working anything out. Maybe just increase the grains by 10% and be done with it.

 

[Drunkula]

If you're not doing full blown, full liquid BIAB but doing a sparge after the efficiency hit isn't much to worry about. I did a full batch that was supposed to have a 17 litre sparge recently but only managed 6 because of the size of my equipment (OooOoohhh) and got over 80% efficiency. Even dunk sparging with cold water still works.

 

[davidgrace]

What was the BH efficiency used in the recipe? You'd have to know that first. It's usually somewhere around 70-76%

You could make a crude guess at your BIAB BH efficiency if you don't know it, but that's all it would be. A crude guess... It could be anywhere between 45% and 80%. I would reckon about 60% personally. Unless you've calculated it before on previous brews and know otherwise?

Unless ABV % is absolutely critical to you, I personally wouldn't bother with working anything out. Maybe just increase the grains by 10% and be done with it.

 

[davidgrace]

Thanks for your reply, Chillie. You ask about the BH efficiency used in the recipe. It doesn't seem to be supplied. I know that using BIAB I cannot try to be anywhere near precise on such things as ABV %. I simply want to brew a beer that will be as close as possible to that intended in the recipe. Maybe your suggestion of 10% grains will give me what I am looking for.

David Cartledge

 

[Nicks90]

I just did my first large volume (20l) biab and by squeezing the bag I got an efficiency of 80% if all the calcs on brewers friend is to be believed.
No sparge either.
20l start volume with 3kg of pale malt, 300gm various crystal. After squeezing the bag for all its worth i had 18l at boil and 15l after the boil and ended up with an og of 1.058
That equates to 80%
Obviously don't want a 7% beer so I diluted it with 2l bottled water

Don't let anyone tell you biab can't be efficient

 

[AdeDunn]

Thanks for your reply, Chillie. You ask about the BH efficiency used in the recipe. It doesn't seem to be supplied. I know that using BIAB I cannot try to be anywhere near precise on such things as ABV %. I simply want to brew a beer that will be as close as possible to that intended in the recipe. Maybe your suggestion of 10% grains will give me what I am looking for.

David Cartledge

Nonsense. BIAB is no less precise etc than multi vessel. Nor does it give lower efficiency, even when going for full volume. What does give lower efficiency is not been familiar with a decent brewing process for the method, and/or not getting your mash pH right. Just the same as in multi vessel brewing.

I hit 75% brew house efficiency with full volume mashing on my eBIAB rig easily. It has built in RIMS though (DIY rig), so mash temps are kept pretty constant. I also have my process pretty nailed down as I've done quite a few brews on it now. In fact, a porter I brewed fairly recently, no sparge, full volume, I hit 81.6% bh efficiency on it. It's still BIAB though. It's a myth that BIAB means lower efficiency, what it really means is that unless you mess up the simplicity of the whole idea of full volume, no sparge, then you need a bigger vessel to brew in.

This said, my first brew on it, I set my estimated BH to 60%, whilst I got used to the new rig and refined my process. If you're using good software, it'll allow you to adjust the malt as you go, showing you the effect this will have on OG and colour.

 

[davidgrace]

I just did my first large volume (20l) biab and by squeezing the bag I got an efficiency of 80% if all the calcs on brewers friend is to be believed.
No sparge either.
20l start volume with 3kg of pale malt, 300gm various crystal. After squeezing the bag for all its worth i had 18l at boil and 15l after the boil and ended up with an og of 1.058
That equates to 80%
Obviously don't want a 7% beer so I diluted it with 2l bottled water

Don't let anyone tell you biab can't be efficient

Thanks, Nicks 90. I was told that I should never squeeze the bag.

 

[SteveH]

I've only recently started brewing (stovetop BIAB) but fwiw my approach has been to divide all the ingredients for a full batch in half then adjust my mash/sparge volumes over a few brews (tweaking the equipment profile in beersmith each time and keeping good notes) until I hit the target OG.

My next brew is also a TT landlord clone (kit from brewuk), I expect to make two 10l batches from the one kit of grain/hops but clearly the final volume depends on your total efficiency/losses.

 

[prog99]

Black malt in landlord?aunsure....

 

[Ghillie]

Thanks for your reply, Chillie. You ask about the BH efficiency used in the recipe. It doesn't seem to be supplied. I know that using BIAB I cannot try to be anywhere near precise on such things as ABV %. I simply want to brew a beer that will be as close as possible to that intended in the recipe. Maybe your suggestion of 10% grains will give me what I am looking for.

David Cartledge

You can be as accurate as you like with BIAB buddy, don't worry. As long as your practices are consistent then numbers don't differ to that of a 3v system or otherwise.

Just have a crack and see how you get on. With BH efficiency, the only thing that technically changes is ABV so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[davidgrace]

Black malt in landlord?aunsure....

That's what the recipe says in "Brew Your Own British Real Ale"

 

[Ghillie]

Black malt in landlord?aunsure....

Yep.

https://www.brewuk.co.uk/timonthy-taylor-recipe-pack-new.html

 

[prog99]

Yep.

https://www.brewuk.co.uk/timonthy-taylor-recipe-pack-new.html

Odd, the graham wheeler one I’ve always used doesn’t have any in it.

 

[Ghillie]

Odd, the graham wheeler one I’ve always used doesn’t have any in it.

I've never made it by the way, I just searched for a TTL recipe and that's the first one I found.

It's such a small amount thought, I wonder if it's mainly for colour?

 

[AdeDunn]

Thanks, Nicks 90. I was told that I should never squeeze the bag.

I reckon most BIAB brewers squeeze the bag. Has absolutely no negative effects that I, or many others, can detect. A few authors claimed it added astringency, but that's pretty much considered to be a myth nowadays. Much like the one about BIAB giving lower efficiency. lol Most software profiles when set to BIAB for the mash actually assume you are squeezing the bag in the grain absorbency calculation I believe, so you can end up coming up short on your boil volume if you don't too, possibly.

Personally, I go for a decent dough in (don't just dump the grain in, give it a quick stir, then leave it), one or 2 good stirs during the mash, then a good mash out at the end instead of sparging. Raise the bag, give it a good squeeze, then rest it on a cooling rack over the boiler to let it drip for a bit whilst I heat the wort up. Works for me anyway, just have to make sure to keep stirring the wort whilst heating to the boil as been an eBIAB rig I have an element in there that will end up with wort scorching onto it if I don't...

The only difference you MAY notice with squeezing is in wort clarity. Doesn't impact flavour though. Just weigh up adding more water and a bit more grain and getting slightly less haze, or giving it a squeeze, not much in it either way to be honest, unless you're pressed for space in your vessel that is, then squeezing is the only choice really.

 

[davidgrace]

I reckon most BIAB brewers squeeze the bag. Has absolutely no negative effects that I, or many others, can detect. A few authors claimed it added astringency, but that's pretty much considered to be a myth nowadays. Much like the one about BIAB giving lower efficiency. lol Most software profiles when set to BIAB for the mash actually assume you are squeezing the bag in the grain absorbency calculation I believe, so you can end up coming up short on your boil volume if you don't too, possibly.

Personally, I go for a decent dough in (don't just dump the grain in, give it a quick stir, then leave it), one or 2 good stirs during the mash, then a good mash out at the end instead of sparging. Raise the bag, give it a good squeeze, then rest it on a cooling rack over the boiler to let it drip for a bit whilst I heat the wort up. Works for me anyway, just have to make sure to keep stirring the wort whilst heating to the boil as been an eBIAB rig I have an element in there that will end up with wort scorching onto it if I don't...

The only difference you MAY notice with squeezing is in wort clarity. Doesn't impact flavour though. Just weigh up adding more water and a bit more grain and getting slightly less haze, or giving it a squeeze, not much in it either way to be honest, unless you're pressed for space in your vessel that is, then squeezing is the only choice really.

Thanks for this.

 

[AdeDunn]

Thanks for this.

No worries. I will mention, I've yet to brew with roasted barley. I've brewed with plenty of other dark malts, such as black malt, chocolate wheat and chocolate malt but not roasted barley. So it's possible that roasted barley may behave differently and I wouldn't know about it. I don't really like the flavour it adds (I find beers with it in have a harsh, burned, flavour), so I don't use it.

I probably don't squeeze as much as some of the chaps either, as I don't use pan lids etc. I just wear a pear of thick (sanitised) marigolds, and squeeze it out with my hands, then use a cable tie at the top of the grain to keep the pressure on whilst I let it drip drain... Stops the grain from spreading out again on me, as I don't have anything to hang the bag from.

Last brew day, my wife then scooped quite a lot of the spent grain out, and made a big batch of dog biscuits with it.

 

[Sandimas]

Odd, the graham wheeler one I’ve always used doesn’t have any in it.

If you read the smallprint in the GW book he says he uses a small amount of black malt to adjust colour: haven't got the book to hand, think it's at the start of the recipes section rather than in each recipe. I often have to use a bit with his recipes to hit the right colour.

Regarding efficiency, it all depends on your method: I was getting about 63% when I started but now get a consistent 68% with a dunk sparge and a bag squeeze. Although my last few brews have been a bit better as the target OG has been beaten, suspect it was the grain from a different supplier rather than my method as that 68% was rock-solid for 3 years.

Sounds like you're a new BIAB brewer so you won't know your efficiency yet, so 10% more grain isn't a bad guess to start with. If the OG is too high you can always add a bit of extra water, whereas if it's too low you can't get it up unless you add other fermentables.

 

[prog99]

If you read the smallprint in the GW book he says he uses a small amount of black malt to adjust colour: haven't got the book to hand, think it's at the start of the recipes section rather than in each recipe. I often have to use a bit with his recipes to hit the right colour.

Yes, its squirrelled away at the back in my copy but is specific to a few recipes and the LL one in mine definitely doesn't use it.